Test position

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw

User avatar
Thomas Mayer
Posts: 385
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:45 pm
Location: Nellmersbach, Germany

Re: Test position

Post by Thomas Mayer »

IWB wrote:Nice position. Some show a very confident 0.00 just a few a high eval for white. I think its won for white. Is it a Zugzwang/Nullmove problem ?!

[D]7k/4p2P/1p1p1b1P/p1nP3K/P1P5/4B3/2B5/8 b - -
I am not so sure anymore whether this wins for white. Self playing games between Yace - Yace or Quark - Quark always end in a draw. (5 min / side)
I did chose those two engines because I know that they both have a null move verification, so usually only very small problems with Zugzwang positions. (By the way, both show a big + score initially for white, Yace with 2.something, Quark with 3.something)

E.g. here is the Yace game:

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2007.04.25"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Yace 0.99.56"]
[Black "Yace 0.99.56"]
[Result "*"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "7k/4p2P/1p1p1b1P/p1nP3K/P1P5/4B3/2B5/8 b - -"]

1... Nd7 {-2.21/16 12s} 2. Bg1 {+2.19/16 12s} Ba1 {-2.21/16
11s} 3. Kg5 {+2.20/16 10s} Bf6+ {-2.20/15 8s} 4. Kf4
{+2.20/16 5s} Nc5 {-2.20/15 6s} 5. Bf2 {+2.20/15 6s} Nd7
{-2.20/15 6s} 6. Be3 {+2.20/14 6s} Ne5 {-2.21/14 6s}
7. Bxb6 {+2.25/14 3s} Nxc4 {-2.25/14 6s} 8. Bc7 {+2.25/14
6s} Bd4 {-2.16/14 6s} 9. Bd8 {+2.25/15 6s} Bf6 {-2.27/15
5s} 10. Kf3 {+2.26/15 4s} Bg5 {-2.27/15 5s} 11. Kg4
{+2.17/15 5s} Bxh6 {-2.17/14 5s} 12. Bxe7 {+2.22/15 5s}
Ne3+ {-2.22/15 5s} 13. Kh5 {+2.21/16 4s} Nxd5 {-2.21/15 5s}
14. Bxd6 {+2.23/16 5s} Bg7 {-1.83/16 5s} 15. Kg6 {+1.26/15
10s} Bc3 {-1.26/14 5s} 16. Bf8 {+1.32/15 5s} Nb6 {-1.32/14
4s} 17. Be7 {+1.14/14 3s} Nd7 {-1.14/14 3s} 18. Ba3
{+1.11/14 5s} Ne5+ {-1.12/14 4s} 19. Kh5 {+1.09/15 4s} Nd7
{-1.04/15 4s} 20. Kh6 {+1.05/15 4s} Bg7+ {-1.05/14 4s}
21. Kg6 {+1.05/15 4s} Bc3 {-1.05/14 4s} 22. Bc1 {+1.01/15
4s} Ne5+ {-1.01/14 4s} 23. Kh5 {+0.91/15 4s} Nd7 {-0.91/14
4s} 24. Kh6 {+0.94/15 4s} Nf8 {-0.94/14 4s} 25. Ba3
{+0.83/14 4s} Bg7+ {-0.79/14 2s} 26. Kg5 {+0.79/15 4s}
Nxh7+ {-0.79/15 3s} 27. Kf5 {+0.79/15 3s} Nf8 {-0.78/15 3s}
28. Bc5 {+0.78/14 3s} Nd7 {-0.78/14 3s} 29. Be3 {+0.78/13
3s} Bf8 {-0.77/12 2s} 30. Ke6 {+0.76/12 3s} Bc5 {-0.75/13
3s} 31. Bd2 {+0.76/13 2s} Nb6 {-0.75/13 3s} 32. Bc3+
{+0.75/13 2s} Kg8 {-0.75/14 2s} 33. Bd1 {+0.75/14 3s} Kf8
{-0.75/13 3s} 34. Bb3 {+0.75/13 3s} Kg8 {-0.75/13 3s}
35. Bc2 {+0.75/12 3s} Bf8 {-0.75/13 3s} 36. Bd1 {+0.75/13
3s} Bg7 {-0.74/13 2s} 37. Be1 {+0.74/13 3s} Bb2 {-0.74/13
2s} 38. Bb3 {+0.74/13 3s} Kg7 {-0.74/12 2s} 39. Bd2
{+0.74/12 2s} Kg6 {-0.74/12 2s} 40. Kd6 {+0.74/11 3s} Kf6
{-0.73/11 2s} 41. Kc5 {+0.72/11 2s} Nxa4+ {-0.72/11 2s}
42. Bxa4 {+0.72/12 2s} Ke5 {-0.72/12 2s} 43. Kc4 {+0.72/12
2s} Bd4 {-0.72/11 1s} 44. Be1 {+0.73/11 1s} Bb2 {-0.71/11
2s} 45. Bg3+ {+0.72/11 1s} Ke6 {-0.72/12 1s} 46. Bc7
{+0.71/12 2s} Bf6 {-0.71/12 1s} 47. Bb6 {+0.71/12 1s} Be5
{-0.71/13 2s} 48. Bf2 {+0.71/12 2s} Kd6 {-0.71/12 2s}
49. Bc5+ {+0.71/12 2s} Ke6 {-0.70/13 1s} 50. Ba3 {+0.70/13
2s} Bd6 {-0.71/13 2s} 51. Bc1 {+0.71/13 1s} Be5 {-0.71/12
2s} 52. Kc5 {+0.71/12 2s} Bf6 {-0.70/12 2s} 53. Bd2
{+0.70/12 2s} Ke5 {-0.71/12 2s} 54. Bc3+ {+0.71/11 2s} Ke6
{-0.70/12 1s} 55. Be1 {+0.70/12 2s} Bb2 {-0.70/11 2s}
56. Bf2 {+0.70/11 2s} Ba1 {-0.70/11 1s} 57. Kc4 {+0.70/11
1s} Bf6 {-0.70/13 1s} 58. Be3 {+0.70/13 1s} Kd6 {-0.70/12
1s} 59. Bc1 {+0.70/12 1s} Ke5 {-0.71/13 1s} 60. Ba3
{+0.69/13 1s} Ke6 {-0.70/13 1s} 61. Kb5 {+0.70/12 1s} Be7
{-0.70/12 1s} 62. Bb2 {+0.70/12 1s} Kd5 {-0.70/12 1s}
63. Bg7 {+0.70/12 1s} Kd6 {-0.70/12 1s} 64. Kc4 {+0.70/13
1s} Ke6 {-0.70/13 1s} 65. Bh6 {+0.70/13 1s} Ke5 {-0.70/14
1s} 66. Be3 {+0.70/13 1s} Bf6 {-0.70/12 1s} 67. Bd4+
{+0.69/10 1s} Ke6 {-0.70/13 1s} 68. Bc5 {+0.70/13 1s} Be5
{-0.70/13 1s} 69. Be3 {+0.70/13 1s} Bf6 {-0.70/13 1s}
70. Kc5 {+0.70/13 1s} Ke5 {-0.70/13 1s} 71. Bd4+ {+0.70/13
1s} Ke6 {-0.70/13 1s} 72. Bg1 {+0.70/13 1s} Bb2 {-0.70/12
1s} 73. Bf2 {+0.71/12 1s} Be5 {-0.70/12 1s} 74. Be3
{+0.71/12 1s} Bf6 {-0.70/12 1s} 75. Bf4 {+0.70/12 1s} Bc3
{-0.71/12 1s} 76. Kc6 {+0.71/11 1s} Be5 {-0.70/12 1s}
77. Bd2 {+0.70/12 1s} Bb2 {-0.70/11 1s} 78. Kc5 {+0.70/12
1s} Ke5 {-0.70/12 1s} 79. Bg5 {+0.70/12 1s} Bc3 {-0.70/12
1s} 80. Kc4 {+0.70/12 1s} Bb2 {-0.70/12 1s} 81. Bh6
{+0.69/12 1s} Kd6 {-0.69/12 1s} 82. Be3 {+0.69/12 1s} Be5
{-0.69/12 1s} 83. Bg5 {+0.69/12 1s} Bb2 {-0.69/12 1s}
84. Kd3 {+0.69/12 1s} Kc5 {-0.68/11 0s} 85. Be7+ {+0.68/11
1s} Kd5 {-0.68/12 0s} 86. Bh4 {+0.68/12 0s} Be5 {-0.68/12
0s} 87. Be1 {+0.68/11 1s} Bf6 {-0.65/11 0s} 88. Bf2
{+0.66/11 0s} Bg7 {-0.65/10 0s} 89. Bh4 {0.00/11 1s} Be5
{0.00/13 0s} 90. Kc2 {0.00/13 0s} Ke6 {0.00/14 0s} 91. Kd3
{0.00/14 0s} Kd5 {0.00/22 0s} *

Quark game:

[Event "Computer Chess Game"]
[Site "ARNOLD7"]
[Date "2007.04.25"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Quark v2.67alpha"]
[Black "Quark v2.67alpha"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[TimeControl "300"]
[FEN "7k/4p2P/1p1p1b1P/p1nP3K/P1P5/4B3/2B5/8 b - - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]

{--------------
. . . . . . . k
. . . . p . . P
. p . p . b . P
p . n P . . . K
P . P . . . . .
. . . . B . . .
. . B . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
black to play
--------------}
1... Nd7 2. Bg1 Bc3 3. Kg5 Bf6+ 4. Kf4 Ne5 5. Bxb6 Nxc4 6. Bf2 Ne5 7. Be1
Nc4 8. Bg6 Nb6 9. Bxa5 Nxa4 10. Kf5 Nc5 11. Bc7 Bc3 12. Bb6 Bb2 13. Bd8 Bf6
14. Ba5 Nb3 15. Be1 Nd4+ 16. Kg4 Ne2 17. Bd2 Be5 18. Kg5 Nc3 19. Bc2 Nxd5
20. Kf5 Nf6 21. Ke6 Nxh7 22. Kxe7 Nf6 23. Ke6 Nh5 24. Be3 Kg8 25. Bf2 Nf4+
26. Kf5 Kh8 27. Bh4 Nd5 28. Bb1 Bd4 29. Ke6 Ne3 30. Bg5 d5 31. Bg6 Ng4 32.
Bc1 Be3 33. Bb2+ d4 34. h7 Bh6 35. Bf5 Nh2 36. Kf7 Nf3 37. Ke8 Ng5 38.
Bxd4+ Bg7 39. Bc5 Nxh7 40. Be7 Nf6+ 41. Kf7 Nd5 42. Bc5 Nc3 43. Ke6 Kg8 44.
Be7 Bh6 45. Bf6 Nb5 46. Bd3 Na7 47. Bd4 Nc6 48. Bb6 Kg7 49. Bb5 Nb4 50.
Bd4+ Kg6 51. Bc3 Na2 52. Be8+ Kh7 53. Bd4 Bg5 54. Kf5 Bd2 55. Bf7 Nb4 56.
Bc5 Nc2 57. Bf8 Be3 58. Bh5 Kg8 59. Bd6 Ne1 60. Ke4 Ba7 61. Bg3 Nc2 62. Bd1
Na3 63. Bb3+ Kg7 64. Bd6 Nb5 65. Be5+ Kf8 66. Bd1 Ke7 67. Kd5 Bf2 68. Be2
Nd6 69. Bf4 Nb7 70. Bg5+ Kd7 71. Bb5+ Kc7 72. Bf4+ Kb6 73. Bc6 Na5 74. Ba4
Be1 75. Kd4 Nb7 76. Be3 Na5 77. Kd5+ Kc7 78. Ba7 Nb7 79. Bg1 Na5 80. Bb5
Nb3 81. Bh2+ Kb6 82. Be8 Na5 83. Kd4 Nb7 84. Bg1 Kc7 85. Kd5 Na5 86. Ke6
Bh4 87. Ke5 Nb7 88. Bh2 Na5 89. Bf4 Nb3
{Draw by fifty moves rule} 1/2-1/2

By the way: I didn't find a way how I can outplay a position in the Shredder 9 GUI with TWO different engines. When I click on outplay it always used just ONE engine and the other one did just analyze...

Greets, Thomas
Top
Christopher Conkie
Posts: 6073
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:34 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Test position

Post by Christopher Conkie »

IWB wrote: Your problem is just that you obviously allways think people are bad.
You? Bad? Never Ingo. You are perfect.....welcome to the club......
IWB wrote:Regarding the asked analyses read this: http://216.25.93.108/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 43&t=13370

Up till now I found only two top UCI engines who are giving a positiv score but a lot with a 0.00 when given the whole game.
Which ones?
Top
IWB
Posts: 1539
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:02 pm

Re: Test position

Post by IWB »

Thomas Mayer wrote: [D]7k/4p2P/1p1p1b1P/p1nP3K/P1P5/4B3/2B5/8 b - -


I am not so sure anymore whether this wins for white. Self playing games between Yace - Yace or Quark - Quark always end in a draw. (5 min / side)
I did chose those two engines because I know that they both have a null move verification, so usually only very small problems with Zugzwang positions.
Hello Thomas

I am 98% sure that this is a win for white but the problem with 0.00 is something different which I have described here:

http://216.25.93.108/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 43&t=13370

Regarding your Classic GUI "outplay" problem. Load the desired position, start an engine match, define the engines you want, click on start match - now the GUI will ask you if it should continue from the given or start with a new-game position.

Bye
Ingo

PS: Where is "my" UCI-Quark ;-)
Top

Return to “Computer Chess Club: General Topics”