To put everything into place with Strelka

[Zlaire]

I completely agree with Ed Schröder here. And I think it's important that any new (strong) engine goes through the process of eliminating it from any clone suspicions.

Better to thoroughly verify every new engine than just accept it and waste hours and hours of testing time on something that indeed turns out to be a clone.

There is nothing wrong with that. It would be more wrong to blindly accept it in my opinion.

[Rob]

Hello Sergei,

it is unbelieveable what kind of witch hunt started because of Strelka. Maybe some of you know that I am kind of experienced in detecting clones. I posted following things in a german forum before it came to public that Sergei Markoff saw the sources of Strelka.

Strelka is not a clone of Rybka. It is easy to find out that there are essential differences. They have a different movegeneration and different evaluation and knowledge.

All we have is that Strelka is suspicious because it is somehow encrypted and because it behaves similar to Rybka in many illegal positions. Well, I saw a lot of encrypted free engines, one example is Homer which is for sure no clone.

And about the behaviour in illegal positions... Engines with similar techniques behave similar in illegal positions. Try out Crafty and Dragon. Both are Bitboard engines and botch behave in the same way in 95% of illegal positions. You cant say anything only with illegal positions, they are just a hint to take a closer look.

What you guys have done is, everyone searched for similaries and posted them, but noone looked for differences. Thats all.


Here are a few positions of me:

In such positions you can check the movegen, a lot of moves are a mate:

[D] 6KB/3Q4/2Q5/2R1R3/3k4/2R1R3/2Q1Q3/8 b - - 1 1

Strelka:
1 00:00 1 1 +M283 h8g7
1 00:00 2 2 +M277 h8f6
1 00:00 12 12 +M0 e6d7
1 00:00 12 12 +319,00 e6d7


Rybka v1.0 Beta.w32:
Dc2-d1

So the movegen is different. What you can also see here is that Rybka plays the move immediately while Strelka looks deeper.

Strelka simply says "1-0 {White mates}"

Rybka says "bestmove a1a1"

Both identify the position correctly as an unplayable endposition.
The difference is about the interface code wich is obviously
different between them. UCI doesn't have the Winboard output "1-0 {White mates}"

Now a look on the endgame knowledge:

[D] 8/8/8/4k3/8/3K4/2B5/8 w - - 0 1

Rybka v1.0 Beta.w32:
3 00:00 242 247.808 -0,03 Lc2b1
4 00:00 1.822 1.865.728 +0,03 Lc2b1
5 00:00 3.158 3.233.792 -0,03 Lc2b1 Ke5f4
6 00:00 15.255 918.889 +0,03 Lc2b1 Ke5f4 Lb1a2

Rybka evaluates around 0 while Strelka:

[D] 8/8/8/4k3/2K5/8/2B5/8 b - - 1 1

Strelka:
1 00:00 1 1 +2,75 d3c4
2 00:00 14 14 +2,81 d3c4 e5f4
3 00:00 67 67 +2,75 d3c4 e5f4 c2b1
4 00:00 321 321 +2,81 d3c4 e5f4 c2b1

thinks it has an advantage.

Strelka lacks some drawn endgame knowledge and gives more to white.

And btw. an illegal position which happened by accident in the previous test:

[D] 8/2B5/8/4k3/2K5/8/8/8 b - - 0 1

Strelka:
1 00:00 1 1 +2,75 c7e5
1 00:00 12 12 +2,81 c7b8 e5e4
2 00:00 48 48 +2,75 c7b8 e5e4 b8h2
2 00:00 64 64 +2,81 c7e5 a5a4
3 00:00 217 217 +2,75 c7e5 a5b4 e5h2
3 00:00 288 288 +2,81 c7b8 e5e4 b8h2 e4e3


Rybka crashes here...

Not illegal at all. It's just the black king in check.
Both move the king out of the way.
Again, Strelka lacks some drawn endgame knowledge and gives more to white.

There is really not enough to say Strelka is a clone, and after Sergey Markoff saw the sources I am sure Strelka is OK.

There is no need for Ossipov to show anyone else the sources, first bring on more hints it could be a clone.

Ossipov has done much more than others and much more than he has to do.

Best,
Alex

I have no doubt that Strelka is a clone. The only problem is to prove it without betraying Rybka secrets.

[Andre van Ark]

Hi all,

What astonishes me: Why does the programmer do the effort to make an engine, but takes he no effort to tell something about it. For example some release notes, FAQ and so on.

André

[Sylwy]

Hi !

1.Strelka is for free and comes from another region with other standards & exigencies.
2.I heared-these days-a lot of stupidities here: the no.1 in top-far away-is the name of Strelka used like reason to be considered a clone.
3.Why the new Loop isn't it thought that to be a Rybka clone despite the history with the very first List( versus Crafty), despite the use of bitboards,despite some similar analyses,despite....... ?
I like to see the same severe manners to be applied for every new strong release but not in a selective way
So sorry !
Regards,
Sylwy

[Gerd Isenberg]

Hi Daniel,

Personal attack? May be you overlooked my smilies?? Since I used almost the same words as you did, does that imply your statement was a personal attack against Sergei as well?

Don't be silly Gerd. I was talking about the name "Michael Ehrig".

With the name "Mr. Spock" i was explaining that its my logical way and nothing more.

With the name "Michael Ehrig" you're saying i'm cloning engines or at least i'm a cloner ! (should i show you the old CCC archives where you attacking me as well with the same spot ?)

So what ?

Explicitly stating that, implies "i don't trust you at all". May be i am a bit over sensitized - but imho this is social chauvinism.

Gerd

Look what i have written in the CSS-Forum in german, it's the same and yes maybe it sounds to hart.


Trying to send greetings
Daniel

I didn't say you are a cloner. That is your own association and miss-interpretation. In my angriness I only want to make you feel like Sergei probably felt about your statement. I see it was destructive - my apologies to you.

You were team member and iirr responsable for the Greif opening book, at least 1994 during the 4th IPCCC, Oct. 1994, where we met the first time while we played a funny game.

Greif by Michael Ehrig played the 12th World Microcomputer Chess Championship in Munic 1993: http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/icga/p ... 212&lang=6

Greif was later proven by Chrilly Donninger to be a Nimzo clone.
I am aware, you claimed to know nothing about Greif was a clone - and i see no reason not to trust you.

Regards,
Gerd

[Thomas Mayer]

Hi,

3.Why the new Loop isn't it thought that to be a Rybka clone despite the history with the very first List( versus Crafty), despite the use of bitboards,despite some similar analyses,despite....... ?
I like to see the same severe manners to be applied for every new strong release but not in a selective way

List was checked by Chrilly Donninger and he said that it is no clone of anything... So you can't say that the same manners aren't applied to every new (not only strong) engine.

What you forgot is, that there are a lot suspicious things found about Strelka and therefor this must be clarified. And it will be clarified in whatever direction. E.g. Fernando asked: "Where are the proofs ?" - if he would have read CCC carefully he would have found a lot of indications that something is fishy with Strelka. And so far all the given explanations aren't satisfying - to me and as it seems to a lot others. (E.g. the WildCat programmer who writes regularly in the named russian forum)

All new engines are checked carefully, especially since the Deep <9> clone. E.g. Toga to be based on fruit would have been eventually never discovered when there are not some persons that take a careful look.

Greets, Thomas

[Alexander Schmidt]

Hi Rob,

I am sorry, Arena put the wron fen in the analysis line.

Here is the correct fen:

[D] 6KB/8/2Q1Q3/2R1R3/3k4/2R1R3/2Q1Q3/8 w - - 0 1

Strelka:
1 00:00 1 1 +M283 h8g7
1 00:00 2 2 +M277 h8f6
1 00:00 12 12 +M0 e6d7
1 00:00 12 12 +319,00 e6d7


Rybka v1.0 Beta.w32:
Dc2-d1

[D] 8/2B5/8/4k3/2K5/8/8/8 w - - 0 1

White to move with the Black King in check!

Strelka:
1 00:00 1 1 +2,75 c7e5
1 00:00 12 12 +2,81 c7b8 e5e4
2 00:00 48 48 +2,75 c7b8 e5e4 b8h2
2 00:00 64 64 +2,81 c7e5 a5a4
3 00:00 217 217 +2,75 c7e5 a5b4 e5h2
3 00:00 288 288 +2,81 c7b8 e5e4 b8h2 e4e3


Rybka crashes here...


You see that Rybka and Strelka are different in essential things. Strelka is for sure not a poor copy of Rybka.

Did you ever try to decompile an Engine? An encrypted engine? Do you think you get something you can work with? It would be much easier to take Fruit and improve it.

BTW: I found much more similaries in commercial engines with Fruit than Strelka has with Rybka.

Best,
Alex

[Sylwy]

Hi !
Yes, I know-you are right with List-but Loop is a completely new chess engine !
Best to you,
Sylwy

[Rob]

Hi Rob,

I am sorry, Arena put the wron fen in the analysis line.

Here is the correct fen:

[D] 6KB/8/2Q1Q3/2R1R3/3k4/2R1R3/2Q1Q3/8 w - - 0 1

Strelka:
1 00:00 1 1 +M283 h8g7
1 00:00 2 2 +M277 h8f6
1 00:00 12 12 +M0 e6d7
1 00:00 12 12 +319,00 e6d7


Rybka v1.0 Beta.w32:
Dc2-d1

[D] 8/2B5/8/4k3/2K5/8/8/8 w - - 0 1

White to move with the Black King in check!

Strelka:
1 00:00 1 1 +2,75 c7e5
1 00:00 12 12 +2,81 c7b8 e5e4
2 00:00 48 48 +2,75 c7b8 e5e4 b8h2
2 00:00 64 64 +2,81 c7e5 a5a4
3 00:00 217 217 +2,75 c7e5 a5b4 e5h2
3 00:00 288 288 +2,81 c7b8 e5e4 b8h2 e4e3


Rybka crashes here...


You see that Rybka and Strelka are different in essential things. Strelka is for sure not a poor copy of Rybka.

Did you ever try to decompile an Engine? An encrypted engine? Do you think you get something you can work with? It would be much easier to take Fruit and improve it.

BTW: I found much more similaries in commercial engines with Fruit than Strelka has with Rybka.

Best,
Alex

Both are silly positions that have nothing to do with playing chess.

Yes I have decompiled Strelka and Rybka and they're the same.

[mclane]

Yes I have decompiled Strelka and Rybka and they're the same.

do you have any evidence to support this statement ?