Strelka: Justice in Reverse

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fern
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Strelka: Justice in Reverse

Post by fern » Thu May 10, 2007 3:33 pm

I believed to date, how candid am I, that every normal intelligent person already knew that you must be considered not guilty until proofs on the contrary could appear. Now I see that in this field of chess computers the very opposite is the norm: you are considered a felon unless you probe the contrary.
Is Trelka a clone or not?
If it is, sooner or later proofs of it will appear. In the meantime decency, trust and simple good will call to accept the claim of the author.
Have you forgotten what happened when Rybka father came here and said he had a lot stronger engine than any other?
Almost all laughed at him. First feeling was untrust. First movement was to reject. First gesture was to deride. All this does no speak of a community with a sane state of the soul.
Is not smarter, at last, to be nice and accept the claims and then later see if they are for real? Always you know the truth at last, isn't it? So, for what to spread poison in advance that perhaps you will be compelled to swallow?
In brief, to ask Trelka author proofs of NOT being a felon is, in my feeling, the very opposite of reasonnable good will and justice.
Those that believes it is a clone must be the people to make an effort to probe that.
Otherwise we are installing here a kind of totalitarian court as those in URSS 30's years. And worst, an spirit of bad faith.

My bst
fernando

Christopher Conkie
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Re: Strelka: Justice in Reverse

Post by Christopher Conkie » Thu May 10, 2007 3:44 pm

fern wrote:Have you forgotten what happened when Rybka father came here and said he had a lot stronger engine than any other?
Almost all laughed at him. First feeling was untrust. First movement was to reject. First gesture was to deride. All this does no speak of a community with a sane state of the soul.
http://f50.parsimony.net/forum202220/messages/12189.htm

I never ask questions if I know something is ok.

Regards

Christopher

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mclane
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Re: Strelka: Justice in Reverse

Post by mclane » Thu May 10, 2007 7:02 pm

Those that believes it is a clone must be the people to make an effort to probe that.
this has been done

maybe you missed the positions where they played similar.

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mariaclara
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Re: Strelka: Justice in Reverse

Post by mariaclara » Thu May 10, 2007 7:26 pm

:shock: :shock:

........Ola Leto :!:

...............................ride em Tito Fern ! ! ! ! 8-) 8-)

.............
Otherwise we are installing here a kind of totalitarian court as those in URSS 30's years. And worst, an spirit of bad faith.

My bst
fernando
:wink: :roll: :wink: :roll:
.
.

................. Mu Shin ..........................

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Re: Strelka: Justice in Reverse

Post by PauloSoare » Thu May 10, 2007 9:05 pm

mclane wrote:
Those that believes it is a clone must be the people to make an effort to probe that.
this has been done

maybe you missed the positions where they played similar.
I don´t understand nothing of programer, but I agree with Fernando.
Do you are sure that it´s a clone? 100% sure? If not, I will remember
to you that you are calumniating the author. And about the damages, moral
and probably comercial?

Paulo Soares

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fern
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Re: Strelka: Justice in Reverse

Post by fern » Thu May 10, 2007 9:44 pm

If that is a proof, is not a very good one. Many engines play the same in similar situations because they are good enough to see, equally, all of them, the best path.

My best
Fernando

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Re: Strelka: Justice in Reverse

Post by GenoM » Thu May 10, 2007 9:49 pm

thorsten look at that game (especially at evaluation in the end) and tell me again that Strelka is Rybka clone:

[Event "strelka_gauntlet-2"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2007.05.10"]
[Round "1.9"]
[White "Strelka v.1.0.beta"]
[Black "Rybka 1.0 beta 32-bit"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C88"]
[Annotator "0.02;0.00"]
[PlyCount "137"]
[EventDate "2007.05.09"]
[EventType "simul"]
[Source "Manev"]
[TimeControl "40/240:30/120:60"]

{Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.00GHz 1993 MHz W=14.7 ply; 686kN/s;
Salvo's8moves.ctg B=13.1 ply; 90kN/s; Salvo's8moves.ctg} 1. e4 {B/0 0} e5 {
B/0 0} 2. Nf3 {B/0 0} Nc6 {B/0 0} 3. Bb5 {B/0 0} a6 {B/0 0} 4. Ba4 {B/0 0} Nf6
{B/0 0} 5. O-O {B/0 0} Be7 {B/0 0} 6. Re1 {B/0 0} b5 {B/0 0} 7. Bb3 {B/0 0} O-O
{B/0 0} 8. h3 {B/0 0} Bb7 {B/0 0} 9. d3 {0.02/12 12} Bd6 {(Re8) 0.00/9 6} 10.
Be3 {(Nc3) 0.09/12 4} Na5 {0.01/11 8} 11. Nc3 {0.10/13 16} Re8 {(h6) -0.03/10 4
} 12. Bd5 {0.06/12 7} c6 {-0.05/11 7} 13. Bb3 {0.07/11 2} Bb4 {(Qc7) -0.02/10 8
} 14. a3 {(Bd2) 0.17/12 5} Nxb3 {0.12/10 2} 15. cxb3 {0.20/12 1} Bd6 {
(Bxc3) 0.12/11 6} 16. d4 {0.16/13 5} exd4 {0.12/10 2} 17. Qxd4 {0.31/13 5} Bc7
{(Qc7) 0.15/11 15} 18. e5 {0.63/13 6} c5 {(Nd5) 0.34/12 7} 19. Qxc5 {0.87/14 9}
d6 {0.34/12 7} 20. exd6 {0.91/14 5} Bxd6 {0.35/11 7} 21. Qb6 {(Qd4) 0.96/14 9}
Qxb6 {(Bxf3) 0.43/11 7} 22. Bxb6 {0.95/13 3} b4 {(Bxf3) 0.41/11 11} 23. axb4 {
1.05/13 5} Bxb4 {0.55/11 6} 24. Ra4 {1.02/13 7} Bf8 {0.47/11 12} 25. Bd4 {
(Rd4) 0.96/12 5} Nd7 {(Nh5) 0.47/11 6} 26. Rc4 {0.93/12 5} Rxe1+ {
(Bxf3) 0.67/12 4} 27. Nxe1 {1.27/14 5} Bd6 {0.62/13 5} 28. Nd3 {1.26/14 8} Re8
{0.70/13 8} 29. Be3 {1.30/14 13} Ne5 {(f6) 0.75/12 5} 30. Rd4 {1.41/15 5} Bf8 {
0.70/12 4} 31. Nxe5 {1.43/16 11} Rxe5 {0.86/12 2} 32. Rd7 {(Rd8) 1.44/16 13}
Bc6 {0.71/13 10} 33. Rc7 {1.43/15 6} Be8 {(Re6) 0.72/12 6} 34. Ra7 {
(Rc8) 1.48/13 9} a5 {0.83/12 7} 35. Kh2 {1.56/14 21} Bc6 {(f6) 0.84/12 7} 36.
Ra6 {1.57/14 5} Bb7 {0.95/13 6} 37. Rb6 {1.60/14 5} Bc8 {0.91/12 5} 38. Bf4 {
1.54/14 6} Re8 {1.01/12 11} 39. Kg3 {1.41/13 6} h6 {(f6) 0.96/11 10} 40. Bc7 {
(Nd5) 1.43/13 13} f6 {(Re7) 1.05/12 16} 41. Rb5 {1.78/12 3} Be6 {0.93/11 4} 42.
f4 {1.72/12 2} Bd7 {(Ra8) 0.81/11 2} 43. Rxa5 {(Rd5) 1.78/11 1} Re3+ {0.64/11 3
} 44. Kf2 {1.29/13 4} Rd3 {0.65/12 5} 45. Rd5 {1.24/13 4} Rxd5 {0.64/12 1} 46.
Nxd5 {1.00/16 3} Be6 {0.61/13 3} 47. Ne3 {1.05/15 1} Bxb3 {(Bc5) 0.65/13 2} 48.
Bb6 {(Ke2) 1.15/14 3} Ba4 {(Kf7) 0.46/12 6} 49. Bd4 {(f5) 1.28/13 2} Kf7 {
0.47/12 6} 50. f5 {(g4) 1.16/13 2} h5 {0.39/12 2} 51. g4 {1.09/13 4} hxg4 {
0.37/12 2} 52. hxg4 {1.06/13 1} Ke8 {(Be7) 0.36/12 5} 53. Ke2 {(Kg3) 1.08/14 4}
Bb5+ {0.36/13 3} 54. Kf3 {1.00/15 3} Bc6+ {0.31/14 6} 55. Kg3 {0.90/15 2} Kf7 {
(Bd6+) 0.36/14 12} 56. Nc4 {(Kf2) 1.15/13 2} Bd5 {(Ba4) 0.22/13 2} 57. b3 {
1.05/13 3} g6 {0.28/13 3} 58. g5 {1.19/14 2} fxg5 {(Be7) 0.22/12 1} 59. Ne5+ {
1.18/12 1} Kf6 {(Kg8) 0.28/13 1} 60. Nxg6+ {1.92/12 1} Kxf5 {0.28/15 1} 61.
Nxf8 {1.92/16 1} Bxb3 {0.28/16 3} 62. Nd7 {(Bc3) 1.92/17 1} Bd5 {(g4) 0.28/12 1
} 63. Bc3 {(Nb6) 1.92/19 2} Be4 {(Ba2) 0.28/15 1} 64. Ne5 {2.75/19 2} Bd5 {
(Bc2) 0.28/16 1} 65. Nf3 {(Ng4) 2.80/15 4} Bxf3 {(Bb7) 0.03/15 1} 66. Kxf3 {
2.81/19 1} g4+ {0.03/18 2} 67. Kg3 {2.81/21 1} Kg6 {(Kg5) 0.03/21 2} 68. Kh4 {
(Kxg4) 2.81/23 3} Kf7 {0.03/25 3} 69. Kxg4 {2.81/23 1} 1/2-1/2
take it easy :)

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mclane
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Re: Strelka: Justice in Reverse

Post by mclane » Thu May 10, 2007 9:54 pm

you can agree as often as you wish with fernando. that is your right.
there were positions mentioned in several forums. where strelka behaved similar to rybka.

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mclane
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Re: Strelka: Justice in Reverse

Post by mclane » Thu May 10, 2007 9:55 pm

but they do not reproduce the same bugs.

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fern
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Re: Strelka: Justice in Reverse

Post by fern » Thu May 10, 2007 10:04 pm

Wait, thorsten.
Consider this.
A bug is something wrong IN the code.
By example, in BASIC...

10 Print "fernando"
20 goto 10
run

there you have a loop that causes an stupid repetitions of my name being printed. You could call that a bug.

Now, a certain kind of baheviour, the thing you can see in the game, can comes from many sources. I dare to say that very different codes can give as a result the same behaviour. As we have seen here many times, in certain positions ALL or many programs give same bad move as an answer and they are all different.
In that case there is a common "game-bug", but not necceasarily -in fact, not at all- same code-bug

My best
fernando

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