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Re: Strelka again

Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 6:51 am
by cooldalek
Graham Banks wrote:
cooldalek wrote:Personally, I'm not quite sure why accusations that something is a clone (without any foundation) and besmirching someone's reputation doesn't get you at least a temporary ban from this board.

If that happened, perhaps people would think twice before making such claims

I am pleased there is now a thread where a load of people are eating humble pie. But does that make up for the author feeling low and upset all the last week?

We need to stop unfounded accusations. I recommend all those who falsely accused are given a 1 week ban
Hopefully many have learnt a valuable lesson through this and will not be as quick to cast aspersions so readily in future cases.

Regards, Graham.
Maybe. But, while a supporter of yours Graham, I do think the moderation team fell down here. You should have acted hard and fast when talk of clones first came out. I still think those people should be punished.

But at the very least perhaps you could clearly say that, in future, nobody should make accusations like this again and if they do so they will have a 2 week / 1 month / 3 month / permanent ban depending on whether it is a repeat offence or not

Now if someone at CCC wants to offer a service to verify that an engine is not a clone then that is fine. Or if people want to offer that person/team evidence then that is fine too. But don't broadcast it on a public message board

Re: Strelka again

Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 6:59 am
by Tony Thomas
cooldalek wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
cooldalek wrote:Personally, I'm not quite sure why accusations that something is a clone (without any foundation) and besmirching someone's reputation doesn't get you at least a temporary ban from this board.

If that happened, perhaps people would think twice before making such claims

I am pleased there is now a thread where a load of people are eating humble pie. But does that make up for the author feeling low and upset all the last week?

We need to stop unfounded accusations. I recommend all those who falsely accused are given a 1 week ban
Hopefully many have learnt a valuable lesson through this and will not be as quick to cast aspersions so readily in future cases.

Regards, Graham.
Maybe. But, while a supporter of yours Graham, I do think the moderation team fell down here. You should have acted hard and fast when talk of clones first came out. I still think those people should be punished.

But at the very least perhaps you could clearly say that, in future, nobody should make accusations like this again and if they do so they will have a 2 week / 1 month / 3 month / permanent ban depending on whether it is a repeat offence or not

Now if someone at CCC wants to offer a service to verify that an engine is not a clone then that is fine. Or if people want to offer that person/team evidence then that is fine too. But don't broadcast it on a public message board
Have you ever heard of freedom of speech?

Re: Strelka again

Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 7:01 am
by Graham Banks
Tony Thomas wrote: Have you ever heard of freedom of speech?
That's a typical American catchcry and I'm not meaning that in a racist way either because I'm a very pro-American person.

With rights also come responsibilities and that's too often forgotten.

Re: Strelka again

Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 7:10 am
by Tony Thomas
Graham Banks wrote:
Tony Thomas wrote: Have you ever heard of freedom of speech?
That's a typical American catchcry and I'm not meaning that in a racist way either because I'm a very pro-American person.

With rights also come responsibilities and that's too often forgotten.
It is OK to question things, if proven false you have to be man enough to admit that you were wrong. In this case, I was completly wrong.

Re: Strelka again

Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 7:12 am
by mclane
its the sense of the forum to discuss this. there were no accusations out of NOTHING as many people claimed here. there were ENOUGH positions and indications where suspicion concerning cloning was IMO justified.
if we would FORBID talks about this, what would be the next thing we would forbid ? talks about the strength of an engine ?

if you want to make a progress in a pluralistic decision process, you need to collect PRO and CONTRA opinions.

this forum is made to discuss things, to SHOW positions. to allow all others to replay and to analyze those positions or games.

if we would FORBID or delete discussing those things, we could stop doing computerchess.

discussing positions, calculating them with many different programs, publishing ideas and point of views IS what computerchess is all about.

Re: Strelka again

Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 7:12 am
by Graham Banks
Tony Thomas wrote: It is OK to question things, if proven false you have to be man enough to admit that you were wrong. In this case, I was completly wrong.
I see that as an apology. :)

Re: Strelka again

Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 7:14 am
by Tony Thomas
Graham Banks wrote:
Tony Thomas wrote: It is OK to question things, if proven false you have to be man enough to admit that you were wrong. In this case, I was completly wrong.
I see that as an apology. :)
Are you happy now? :wink:

Re: Strelka again

Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 7:16 am
by Graham Banks
Tony Thomas wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Tony Thomas wrote: It is OK to question things, if proven false you have to be man enough to admit that you were wrong. In this case, I was completly wrong.
I see that as an apology. :)
Are you happy now? :wink:
With you - yes! :D :P

Re: Strelka again

Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 7:23 am
by mclane
Personally, I'm not quite sure why accusations that something is a clone (without any foundation)

that is YOU saying this. in fact there have been a couple of strange similarities.

IMO the amount of strange positions was justified to ask for a research or a discussion about them.

and besmirching someone's reputation doesn't get you at least a temporary ban from this board.

If that happened, perhaps people would think twice before making such claims

I am pleased there is now a thread where a load of people are eating humble pie. But does that make up for the author feeling low and upset all the last week?

We need to stop unfounded accusations. I recommend all those who falsely accused are given a 1 week ban
again you say that the "accusations" were unfounded. but this is not the case.
your idea to ban people because they come here and show a position
and claim something is IMO the opposite of what democracy is all about.
we have had several cases in the history of computerchess where software/hardware clones have participated even in OFFICIAL
ICCA/ICGA championships.

(Langers hardware clone comes to my mind, or as Gerd Isenberg mentioned the GREIF case from chamionship 1993 in munich).

Without suspicions concerning certain kind of positions, main lines or behaviour of the programs, those cases (and maybe we have more cases that were never found) could have never been found.

its the opposite of "unfounded accusations". and its IMO the opposite
of damaging someones reputation.

NOW the programmer has in fact increased his reputation. because the code was proven and because the program was for a short while in the focus of the attention of almost anybody in the computerchess scene.

Re: Strelka again

Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 7:45 am
by Werner
Hi Thomas,
I could reproduce this inside DeepFritz 10 GUI:

Strelka - Werner,S, strelka_gauntlet-2 2007
8/6P1/8/8/1n6/p7/2pk4/K7 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Strelka:

72.g7-g8D c2-c1D#
-+ (-299.98) Tiefe: 1 00:00:00
72.g7-g8S
-+ (-320.00) Tiefe: 1 00:00:00

(Werner, 12.05.2007)

but one time I saw also this output (could not reproduce)

261: Strelka - Werner,S, strelka_gauntlet-2 2007
8/6P1/8/8/1n6/p7/2pk4/K7 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Strelka:

72.g7-g8D c2-c1D#
-+ (-299.98) Tiefe: 1 00:00:00
72.g7-g8D c2-c1D#
-+ (-320.00) Tiefe: 1 00:00:00

(Werner, 12.05.2007)

So I tried under Shredder GUI and got following:

1.00 0:00 -320.00 72.g8D c1D+ (2) 2
Bester Zug: g7-g8D Zeit: 0:00.016 min K/s: 2.000 Knoten: 2
resign
Bester Zug: g7-g8S Zeit: 0:00.016 min K/s: 2.000 Knoten: 2

Strelka moved 72. g8D but in engine window I saw this output. Maybe Fritz GUI takes sometimes the second info from the engine??