My review of Strelka Code

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Leto
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Re: My review of Strelka Code

Post by Leto » Sat May 12, 2007 9:40 pm

smirobth wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:I have examined the code and Strelka is not a clone. There is a 1 MB data table called 'material' inside Strelka, which is what I thought was some encrypted binary.

It's ironic that I complained about the 'primitive' Winboard parser.
Strelka's winboard parser borrows heavily from Beowulf.
;-)
Hi Dan,
I am a little surprised that you shared anything specific about the inner workings of a closed source chess engine.
I am as well. Already there are people claiming that Strelka steals from Beowulf.

glorfindel

So hard to apologize

Post by glorfindel » Sun May 13, 2007 3:23 pm

In my opinion it is clear why one should not throw accusations without being certain: Because, by the time the accusations are retracted (in case they were false) the damage has already been done.

Of course sometimes the accusations are not retracted at all, because people find it hard to apologize and make correcting statements.
Christopher Conkie in the thread: To put everything into place with Strelka wrote:
Sergei Markoff wrote:
Christopher Conkie wrote:Why are you showing us Smarthink when you have the Strelka code?

Why not show us the Strelka interface instead?

It's useless to anyone without the rest of Strelka anyway.
To be a honest I need a permission from author to do it.
I think, that Bryan's opinion will be enought to stop speculations. Are you agree with it?
No.

Dann Corbit's opinion is the one that counts and always has.

Regards

Christopher
Now that Dann (as well as Bryan and Sergei) has expressed his opinion that Strelka is not a clone, Christopher, you have made no clear comment on the matter.
Do you still believe that Strelka is a clone, in contrast to Dann? Or are you convinced that it is not?

The silence from your part is deafening.

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mariaclara
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Re: So hard to apologize

Post by mariaclara » Sun May 13, 2007 6:00 pm

:D

Ola Leto, Swami,

......now everyone knows

........................................Who's Who. :!: :!: :!:

....those with a clean, heart and mind r out there basking in
....................................................clear sunshine:idea: :idea: :idea:

...those with jaundiced livers (hehehe)
..........................................................r still down there
doubting, questioning if they're ever gonna get outta that mess.
:P :P :P

hehehe.......... :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

...........hahahaha :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
.
.

................. Mu Shin ..........................

Christopher Conkie
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Nothing To Apologise For.....

Post by Christopher Conkie » Mon May 14, 2007 3:18 am

Now that Dann (as well as Bryan and Sergei) has expressed his opinion that Strelka is not a clone, Christopher, you have made no clear comment on the matter.
Do you still believe that Strelka is a clone, in contrast to Dann? Or are you convinced that it is not?

The silence from your part is deafening.
May I refer you to the following post which you may have missed.

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 64&t=13676

Regards

Christopher

Uri Blass
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Re: Is that an accusation?

Post by Uri Blass » Mon May 14, 2007 3:42 am

Dirt wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:...
Strelka's winboard parser borrows heavily from Beowulf.
;-)
Does "borrows heavily" mean copied? Beowulf appears to be GPL software, so if Strelka uses code from the Beowulf it would be a copyright violation.
I think that winboard parser is not considered as part of the engine and I do not think that this was the intention of the copyright.

I do not know about a single case when people complained that some author copied the winboard parser code that is not about chess from another program.

I asked tord if I can copy code from the uci code of glaurung that is not about playing chess and he said that there is no problem to do it.

Uri

Dirt
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Re: Is that an accusation?

Post by Dirt » Mon May 14, 2007 7:49 am

Uri Blass wrote:
Dirt wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:...
Strelka's winboard parser borrows heavily from Beowulf.
;-)
Does "borrows heavily" mean copied? Beowulf appears to be GPL software, so if Strelka uses code from the Beowulf it would be a copyright violation.
I think that winboard parser is not considered as part of the engine and I do not think that this was the intention of the copyright.

I do not know about a single case when people complained that some author copied the winboard parser code that is not about chess from another program.

I asked tord if I can copy code from the uci code of glaurung that is not about playing chess and he said that there is no problem to do it.

Uri
As far as the originality of a program, I agree that parser code is insignificant. There were some discussions here about the WCCC rules where it was stated that sort of code reuse would not be allowed there, much to my surprise. The use of EGTBs were said to be only allowed because they are explicitly listed as an exception.

Copyright isn't a matter of intention, it is a legal principle that I think it should always be respected. I just don't think it would have been right for you to use Tord's code like that without asking permission.

Perhaps Strelka hasn't really copied Beowulf's interface code: Dann didn't explicitly say they did. Perhaps permission was obtained from whoever holds the rights to that part of the Beowulf code. The situation is unfortunately unclear.

If there is a problem I'm sure it could be cleaned up with minor effort, and I hope with no lasting harm.

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pedrox
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Re: Is that an accusation?

Post by pedrox » Mon May 14, 2007 10:39 am

The objective of Dann when saying that the interface winboard of Strelka is based on Beowulf, it is not to criticize to Strelka for that reason, Dann has criticized to Strelka because its interface winboard seemed quite rudimentary, the peculiar thing of the case is that Dann worked in Beowulf and if he criticizes to Strelka by the interface, het is criticizing his own work and the one of Colin Frayn.

Pedro

glorfindel

Re: Nothing To Apologise For.....

Post by glorfindel » Mon May 14, 2007 4:44 pm

Christopher Conkie wrote:
Now that Dann (as well as Bryan and Sergei) has expressed his opinion that Strelka is not a clone, Christopher, you have made no clear comment on the matter.
Do you still believe that Strelka is a clone, in contrast to Dann? Or are you convinced that it is not?

The silence from your part is deafening.
May I refer you to the following post which you may have missed.

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 64&t=13676

Regards

Christopher
I have not missed this post. It was posted on Thursday, two days before Bryan and Dann expressed their opinions, that Strelka is an original work.

You say in this post that the decision of Dann will be final. I take it, then, that you now believe that Strelka is not a clone.

In my opinion you should have made a post stating this fact and apologizing.

Else you are proving my point that throwing accusations and starting rumors is a lot easier than correcting one's mistake and apologizing.

EDIT: As for your title "Nothing to Apologize for", I would like to remind you that you started the thread "From Russia With Love" (http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13611), where you clearly implied that you had discovered that Strelka is a clone of Rybka

Christopher Conkie
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Re: Nothing To Apologise For.....

Post by Christopher Conkie » Mon May 14, 2007 6:51 pm

glorfindel wrote:
In my opinion you should have made a post stating this fact and apologizing.
For what?
glorfindel wrote: Else you are proving my point that throwing accusations and starting rumors is a lot easier than correcting one's mistake and apologizing.
For what?


glorfindel wrote:As for your title "Nothing to Apologize for", I would like to remind you that you started the thread "From Russia With Love" (http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13611), where you clearly implied that you had discovered that Strelka is a clone of Rybka
No I showed you a position where doth Strelka and a certain version of Rybka behave in a similar manner.

There are no words in the post.

There is nothing clearly implied except a similarity.

Either you can see that or booze is too cheap in Greece.

Regards

Christopher

Dariusz Orzechowski

Re: Nothing To Apologise For.....

Post by Dariusz Orzechowski » Mon May 14, 2007 7:28 pm

The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.

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