Is this positions drawn ??

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M ANSARI
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Is this positions drawn ??

Post by M ANSARI » Fri May 18, 2007 8:15 pm

Topalov vs. Mamedyrov

[d]3Q4/6pk/5r1p/4K2P/8/8/8/8 w - - 0 63


Topalov gave up trying to win and went for a draw ... but engines see a big plus for white. Is this position theoretically drawn ... or was Topalov too tired to find out if a win exists? Which engine also sees a draw ?

Tobias Lagemann

Re: Is this positions drawn ??

Post by Tobias Lagemann » Fri May 18, 2007 8:53 pm

Hi,

the position is a typical fortress (and draw). Topalov and Mamedyrov know this, engines don't.

Tobias

Terry McCracken

Re: Is this positions drawn ??

Post by Terry McCracken » Fri May 18, 2007 9:01 pm

Tobias Lagemann wrote:Hi,

the position is a typical fortress (and draw). Topalov and Mamedyrov know this, engines don't.

Tobias
Indeed, it's a trivial draw.

Terry

Uri Blass
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Re: Is this positions drawn ??

Post by Uri Blass » Fri May 18, 2007 9:17 pm

Terry McCracken wrote:
Tobias Lagemann wrote:Hi,

the position is a typical fortress (and draw). Topalov and Mamedyrov know this, engines don't.

Tobias
Indeed, it's a trivial draw.

Terry
I disagree about trivial.

I believe it is a draw but in order to prove that it is a draw you need to tell me a strategy for black were to put the king and rook against every possibility of squares for white king and queen.

Without it I cannot be sure that white cannot force black into a zugzwang and win the rook by a fork.

Uri

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smirobth
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Re: Is this positions drawn ??

Post by smirobth » Fri May 18, 2007 9:35 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Tobias Lagemann wrote:Hi,

the position is a typical fortress (and draw). Topalov and Mamedyrov know this, engines don't.

Tobias
Indeed, it's a trivial draw.

Terry
I disagree about trivial.

I believe it is a draw but in order to prove that it is a draw you need to tell me a strategy for black were to put the king and rook against every possibility of squares for white king and queen.

Without it I cannot be sure that white cannot force black into a zugzwang and win the rook by a fork.

Uri
Hi Uri,
It seems pretty trivial to me:
1) The rook just stays on f6 while Black's king moves around the squares g8-h8-h7. If the queen is on the eight rank, so that king moves are impossible, the rook can leave f6 to any one of many squares (for example on f2 the rook and king cannot ever be forked, and if the queen is on the 8th rank it cannot also hit the f2 square) and then move back to f6 next turn. There would also be squares on the 6th rank for the rook, if White's king were to guard the f2 square. With so many good potential squares for the rook and king zugzwang will not ever become a factor.
2) Even if you remove Black's h-pawn (a change which can't possibly help Black in this case) tablebases prove the position is still a draw.
- Robin Smith

Cubeman
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Re: Is this positions drawn ??

Post by Cubeman » Fri May 18, 2007 9:47 pm

Also as a general rule.When engines see a big plus from the start of evalution to the end of evalution but it has not grown, even decresed after some time you can be pretty sure no progress can be made.

PauloSoare
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Re: Is this positions drawn ??

Post by PauloSoare » Fri May 18, 2007 10:15 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Tobias Lagemann wrote:Hi,

the position is a typical fortress (and draw). Topalov and Mamedyrov know this, engines don't.

Tobias
Indeed, it's a trivial draw.

Terry
I disagree about trivial.

I believe it is a draw but in order to prove that it is a draw you need to tell me a strategy for black were to put the king and rook against every possibility of squares for white king and queen.

Without it I cannot be sure that white cannot force black into a zugzwang and win the rook by a fork.

Uri
Uri, I do not have absolute certainty of what means zugzang.
Could you define accurately what means zugzwang?
Could you give an example based on this position?

Thanks,

Paulo Soares

PauloSoare
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Re: Is this positions drawn ??

Post by PauloSoare » Fri May 18, 2007 10:18 pm

smirobth wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Tobias Lagemann wrote:Hi,

the position is a typical fortress (and draw). Topalov and Mamedyrov know this, engines don't.

Tobias
Indeed, it's a trivial draw.

Terry
I disagree about trivial.

I believe it is a draw but in order to prove that it is a draw you need to tell me a strategy for black were to put the king and rook against every possibility of squares for white king and queen.

Without it I cannot be sure that white cannot force black into a zugzwang and win the rook by a fork.

Uri
Hi Uri,
It seems pretty trivial to me:
1) The rook just stays on f6 while Black's king moves around the squares g8-h8-h7. If the queen is on the eight rank, so that king moves are impossible, the rook can leave f6 to any one of many squares (for example on f2 the rook and king cannot ever be forked, and if the queen is on the 8th rank it cannot also hit the f2 square) and then move back to f6 next turn. There would also be squares on the 6th rank for the rook, if White's king were to guard the f2 square. With so many good potential squares for the rook and king zugzwang will not ever become a factor.
2) Even if you remove Black's h-pawn (a change which can't possibly help Black in this case) tablebases prove the position is still a draw.
Robin, when I was analysing the position with computer help, I understand your words. Rook in "f" file and King, when possible, in g8 or h8.

Paulo Soares

Uri Blass
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Re: Is this positions drawn ??

Post by Uri Blass » Fri May 18, 2007 10:26 pm

zugzwang is position when you lose because it is you to move.

I cannnot give example from this position but I can give simple example
of different position.

White is in zugzwang

[D]8/8/8/8/5Kp1/6Pk/8/8 w - - 0 1

Note that the fact that I did not see a possible zugzwang in the first position is no proof that there is no line that leads to a zugzwang that I did not see

nuff

Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!

Post by nuff » Fri May 18, 2007 10:27 pm

If you cannot recognise this as a draw get out your chess books and look up endings that are drawn. You are relying too much on your computers and you need to go back to the basics.

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