Is this positions drawn ??

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Uri Blass
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Re: Is this positions drawn ??

Post by Uri Blass » Fri May 18, 2007 10:29 pm

Cubeman wrote:Also as a general rule.When engines see a big plus from the start of evalution to the end of evalution but it has not grown, even decresed after some time you can be pretty sure no progress can be made.
This is not correct.

It is possible that they simply do not see the right plan that is too long for them to see but it is possible to make a progress by the right plan.

Uri

PauloSoare
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Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!

Post by PauloSoare » Fri May 18, 2007 10:34 pm

nuff wrote:If you cannot recognise this as a draw get out your chess books and look up endings that are drawn. You are relying too much on your computers and you need to go back to the basics.
Altougth I have poor chess knowledege, I can recognise this is a draw
without computer help, but I like to analyse with computer help.

Paulo Soares

Uri Blass
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Re: Is this positions drawn ??

Post by Uri Blass » Fri May 18, 2007 10:36 pm

smirobth wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Tobias Lagemann wrote:Hi,

the position is a typical fortress (and draw). Topalov and Mamedyrov know this, engines don't.

Tobias
Indeed, it's a trivial draw.

Terry
I disagree about trivial.

I believe it is a draw but in order to prove that it is a draw you need to tell me a strategy for black were to put the king and rook against every possibility of squares for white king and queen.

Without it I cannot be sure that white cannot force black into a zugzwang and win the rook by a fork.

Uri
Hi Uri,
It seems pretty trivial to me:
1) The rook just stays on f6 while Black's king moves around the squares g8-h8-h7. If the queen is on the eight rank, so that king moves are impossible, the rook can leave f6 to any one of many squares (for example on f2 the rook and king cannot ever be forked, and if the queen is on the 8th rank it cannot also hit the f2 square) and then move back to f6 next turn. There would also be squares on the 6th rank for the rook, if White's king were to guard the f2 square. With so many good potential squares for the rook and king zugzwang will not ever become a factor.
2) Even if you remove Black's h-pawn (a change which can't possibly help Black in this case) tablebases prove the position is still a draw.

1)It is correct that the queen cannot hit the f2 square but queen e8 king e3 may force the rook to go f6-f1 assuming that black keep the rook at the f file.

After that white can make some checks.
It is correct that I do not see checks that lead to fork but it is not a proof that there are not checks that lead to fork in another line.

2)removing black's h pawn can give the rook the square h6 so I am not sure that it cannot help black.

I strongly believe that it is a draw but I am careful not to say that I saw a proof that it is a draw.

Uri Blass
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Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!

Post by Uri Blass » Fri May 18, 2007 10:39 pm

nuff wrote:If you cannot recognise this as a draw get out your chess books and look up endings that are drawn. You are relying too much on your computers and you need to go back to the basics.
I can recognize that I am almost sure that it is a draw.
I cannot recognize it as a draw without doubt.

Chess books are not going to help.

Uri

nuff

Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Save us all some trouble

Post by nuff » Fri May 18, 2007 10:41 pm

Uri Blass, save us all some trouble and look up this position in a text book. You are relying too much on your computer and your real chess skill will be zerorised. Lemme give you a hint so that you can use the search function in google -

- rook , queen, pawns, fortress

Terry McCracken

Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!

Post by Terry McCracken » Fri May 18, 2007 10:53 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
nuff wrote:If you cannot recognise this as a draw get out your chess books and look up endings that are drawn. You are relying too much on your computers and you need to go back to the basics.
I can recognize that I am almost sure that it is a draw.
I cannot recognize it as a draw without doubt.

Chess books are not going to help.

Uri
Robin, and others already gave you the answer. What is the problem?

Yes, John is right, you could find this in a good chess ending book, or on the net.

I said it was a trivial draw, and it is if you understand the position. Calculation won't do much here. If a machine could see enough plys, yes it would show 0.00 and if it knew the technique, it wouldn't have to search.

Terry

PauloSoare
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Re: Is this positions drawn ??

Post by PauloSoare » Fri May 18, 2007 10:58 pm

Thanks Uri, wen you wrote about to found a possible zugzuwang in the position, I stay confused.

Paulo Soares

Uri Blass
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Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Save us all some trouble

Post by Uri Blass » Fri May 18, 2007 11:50 pm

nuff wrote:Uri Blass, save us all some trouble and look up this position in a text book. You are relying too much on your computer and your real chess skill will be zerorised. Lemme give you a hint so that you can use the search function in google -

- rook , queen, pawns, fortress
Even if it is written in a text book that it is a draw the book may have mistakes.
It is not a proof.

I said that I believe that it is a draw so it is not that I am relying on the computer evaluation in my evaluation of the position.

I only said that I am not 100% sure that it is a draw because I can see the difference between "I believe that it is a draw" and "I am sure that it is a draw".

Uri

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Graham Banks
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Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Save us all some trouble

Post by Graham Banks » Fri May 18, 2007 11:59 pm

Uri Blass wrote: Even if it is written in a text book that it is a draw the book may have mistakes.
It is not a proof.
Uri
It is a draw with correct play and the method for Black has already been explained.
Leave the rook on f6 and shuffle the king. White can make no progress.

Uri Blass
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Re: Is this positions drawn ??

Post by Uri Blass » Sat May 19, 2007 12:01 am

PauloSoare wrote:Thanks Uri, wen you wrote about to found a possible zugzuwang in the position, I stay confused.

Paulo Soares
The fact that I did not find a zugzwang does not prove that there is no zugzwang because I did not check all possibilities.


Uri

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