Is this positions drawn ??

[Uri Blass]

Even if it is written in a text book that it is a draw the book may have mistakes.
It is not a proof.
Uri

It is a draw with correct play and the method for Black has already been explained.
Leave the rook on f6 and shuffle the king. White can make no progress.

I cannot leave the rook on f6 because in the diagram if it is black to move the rook has to move.

Uri

[Graham Banks]

Even if it is written in a text book that it is a draw the book may have mistakes.
It is not a proof.
Uri

It is a draw with correct play and the method for Black has already been explained.
Leave the rook on f6 and shuffle the king. White can make no progress.

I cannot leave the rook on f6 because in the diagram if it is black to move the rook has to move.

Uri

Yes - in the initial position the rook must move as Robin explained.
It's still a draw though with correct play.

Regards, Graham.

[PauloSoare]

Thanks Uri, wen you wrote about to found a possible zugzuwang in the position, I stay confused.

Paulo Soares

The fact that I did not find a zugzwang does not prove that there is no zugzwang because I did not check all possibilities.


Uri

Altougth I think that it´s a draw, I can understand your opinion, because
when we analyse positions deeply, as in correspondence chess,
we sometimes are supresised by some variants.

Paulo Soares

[Dann Corbit]

If you cannot recognise this as a draw get out your chess books and look up endings that are drawn. You are relying too much on your computers and you need to go back to the basics.

I can recognize that I am almost sure that it is a draw.
I cannot recognize it as a draw without doubt.

Chess books are not going to help.

Uri

Robin, and others already gave you the answer. What is the problem?

Yes, John is right, you could find this in a good chess ending book, or on the net.

I said it was a trivial draw, and it is if you understand the position. Calculation won't do much here. If a machine could see enough plys, yes it would show 0.00 and if it knew the technique, it wouldn't have to search.

Terry

Both computers and GMs are often wrong about positions, including some that seem fairly simple.

I think it is a draw. I do not see any way to make progress.
The following analysis by Rybka is obviously a game of "round and round the mullberry bush":

Code: Select all

Analysis from e:\pdraw.epd   
5/18/2007 3:56:46 PM Level: 3600 Seconds
Analyzing engine: Rybka v1.2.w32

1) 0 63                 
    Avoid move: 
    Best move (Rybka v1.2.w32): Qd8-d3
    Not found in: 1:00:00
      2	00:00	         256	4.161	+3.56	Qd8d3+
      3	00:00	         976	15.863	+3.44	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8
      4	00:00	       2.264	24.663	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3d4
      5	00:00	       6.680	54.288	+3.51	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3d4 Rf6f8
      5	00:00	       8.280	54.004	+3.69	Qd8d7 Rf6f2 Ke5e4
      6	00:00	      16.688	78.029	+3.69	Qd8d7 Rf6f2 Qd7d3+ Kh7g8 Ke5e4
      7	00:00	      28.992	94.849	+3.69	Qd8d7 Rf6f2 Qd7d3+ Kh7g8 Qd3d8+ Kg8h7 Qd8d6
      8	00:01	      50.624	106.884	+3.69	Qd8d7 Rf6f2 Qd7d3+ Kh7g8 Qd3d8+ Kg8h7 Qd8d6 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4
      9	00:01	     105.080	132.351	+3.68	Qd8d7 Rf6f8 Qd7d3+ Kh7h8 Ke5e6 Kh8g8 Qd3d5 Kg8h8 Ke6d7
      9	00:01	     115.040	129.879	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8d5 Rf2e2+ Ke5d6 Kh7h8
     10	00:01	     129.848	128.841	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6
     11	00:01	     139.632	125.313	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8
     12	00:01	     166.576	121.232	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     13	00:02	     208.864	104.483	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     14	00:03	     246.048	103.344	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     15	00:03	     301.040	103.827	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     16	00:04	     425.720	100.701	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     17	00:06	     510.360	93.943	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     18	00:07	     639.496	93.123	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     19	00:11	     967.320	92.677	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     20	00:13	   1.168.768	94.096	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     21	00:16	   1.470.712	97.155	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     22	00:19	   1.794.056	98.881	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     23	00:23	   2.222.128	99.813	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     24	00:27	   2.774.096	103.708	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     25	00:34	   3.466.056	105.209	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     26	00:41	   4.342.760	107.968	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     27	00:52	   5.462.328	106.985	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     28	01:06	   6.870.568	107.257	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     29	01:19	   8.631.296	111.349	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     30	02:05	  10.766.352	88.396	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     31	02:23	  13.405.704	96.237	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     32	02:45	  16.587.888	103.169	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     33	03:09	  20.398.272	110.298	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     34	03:36	  24.823.512	117.698	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     35	04:08	  30.298.728	125.151	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     36	04:55	  37.095.552	129.031	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     37	05:42	  45.004.520	134.935	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     38	06:30	  54.263.680	142.493	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     39	07:28	  65.595.528	149.937	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     40	08:34	  79.040.464	157.590	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     41	10:12	  99.861.416	167.203	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     42	12:07	 122.940.352	173.101	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     43	14:20	 150.452.920	179.251	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     44	16:55	 183.410.728	185.148	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     45	20:18	 228.039.120	191.801	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
   5/18/2007 4:21:12 PM, Time for this analysis: 00:24:23, Rated time: 1:00:00

0 of 1 matching moves
5/18/2007 4:21:13 PM, Total time: 12:24:27 AM

Trading queen for rook + pawn is clearly drawn:

Code: Select all

[Event "Edited position"]
[Site "DCORBIT64"]
[Date "2007.05.18"]
[Round "-"]
[White "-"]
[Black "-"]
[Result "*"]
[FEN "3Q4/6pk/5r1p/4K2P/8/8/8/8 w - - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]

{--------------
. . . Q . . . .
. . . . . . p k
. . . . . r . p
. . . . K . . P
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
white to play
--------------}
1. Qxf6 gxf6+ 2. Kxf6
*
[D]8/7k/5K1p/7P/8/8/8/8 b - - 0 2

But that does not mean that there is not some path we did not think of.

I trust neither the GMs nor the computers nor myself. I always imagine that I may have missed something important, and they might have also.

[smirobth]

Hi,

the position is a typical fortress (and draw). Topalov and Mamedyrov know this, engines don't.

Tobias

Indeed, it's a trivial draw.

Terry

I disagree about trivial.

I believe it is a draw but in order to prove that it is a draw you need to tell me a strategy for black were to put the king and rook against every possibility of squares for white king and queen.

Without it I cannot be sure that white cannot force black into a zugzwang and win the rook by a fork.

Uri

Hi Uri,
It seems pretty trivial to me:
1) The rook just stays on f6 while Black's king moves around the squares g8-h8-h7. If the queen is on the eight rank, so that king moves are impossible, the rook can leave f6 to any one of many squares (for example on f2 the rook and king cannot ever be forked, and if the queen is on the 8th rank it cannot also hit the f2 square) and then move back to f6 next turn. There would also be squares on the 6th rank for the rook, if White's king were to guard the f2 square. With so many good potential squares for the rook and king zugzwang will not ever become a factor.
2) Even if you remove Black's h-pawn (a change which can't possibly help Black in this case) tablebases prove the position is still a draw.

1)It is correct that the queen cannot hit the f2 square but queen e8 king e3 may force the rook to go f6-f1 assuming that black keep the rook at the f file.

After that white can make some checks.
It is correct that I do not see checks that lead to fork but it is not a proof that there are not checks that lead to fork in another line.

2)removing black's h pawn can give the rook the square h6 so I am not sure that it cannot help black.

I strongly believe that it is a draw but I am careful not to say that I saw a proof that it is a draw.

Hi Uri,

Here is a pretty simple algorithm for generating Black's moves that I think will make the draw 100.0% clear, and perhaps would satisfy you as a proof. I mentioned this same idea before, but perhaps if I make my explanation more rigorous it will help. Black can play the first move that meets a listed criterion:

1) If the queen can be captured, capture it.
2) If the king is in check, move out of check to any one of the squares g7, g8, h8.
3) If the rook is not on f6, move it to f6.
4) If the rook is already on f6 and it is possible to leave it there, shuffle the king around on squares g8-h8-h7.
5) If the queen is on the 8th rank so that king moves are not possible, move the rook to f2, unless f2 is guarded by White's king.
6) If king moves are impossible and f2 is guarded by White's king, move the rook to any of the 6th rank squares a6, b6, or c6 that is a) not controlled by White's queen, and b) cannot be attacked in a way that forks the rook and king. Note that a fork of the rook on a6 and king on h7 can only happen from d3, that a fork of a rook on b6 and king on h7 is not possible, and that a fork of a rook on c6 and king on h7 can only happen from e4. There is no square on the 8th rank from which the queen can move to both d3 and e4 (nor can the queen ever fork the king and rook if the rook is on b6) therefore at least one of the squares a6, b6 and c6 will always be safe if the queen is on the 8th rank and White's king is guarding f2. A queen on the 8th rank can only control 2 of these 3 squares, at least one will always be safe, and if the White king is guarding f2 it cannot also guard a6, b6 or c6 at the same time.

QED

[Terry McCracken]

If you cannot recognise this as a draw get out your chess books and look up endings that are drawn. You are relying too much on your computers and you need to go back to the basics.

I can recognize that I am almost sure that it is a draw.
I cannot recognize it as a draw without doubt.

Chess books are not going to help.

Uri

Robin, and others already gave you the answer. What is the problem?

Yes, John is right, you could find this in a good chess ending book, or on the net.

I said it was a trivial draw, and it is if you understand the position. Calculation won't do much here. If a machine could see enough plys, yes it would show 0.00 and if it knew the technique, it wouldn't have to search.

Terry

Both computers and GMs are often wrong about positions, including some that seem fairly simple.

I think it is a draw. I do not see any way to make progress.
The following analysis by Rybka is obviously a game of "round and round the mullberry bush":

Code: Select all

Analysis from e:\pdraw.epd   
5/18/2007 3:56:46 PM Level: 3600 Seconds
Analyzing engine: Rybka v1.2.w32

1) 0 63                 
    Avoid move: 
    Best move (Rybka v1.2.w32): Qd8-d3
    Not found in: 1:00:00
      2	00:00	         256	4.161	+3.56	Qd8d3+
      3	00:00	         976	15.863	+3.44	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8
      4	00:00	       2.264	24.663	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3d4
      5	00:00	       6.680	54.288	+3.51	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3d4 Rf6f8
      5	00:00	       8.280	54.004	+3.69	Qd8d7 Rf6f2 Ke5e4
      6	00:00	      16.688	78.029	+3.69	Qd8d7 Rf6f2 Qd7d3+ Kh7g8 Ke5e4
      7	00:00	      28.992	94.849	+3.69	Qd8d7 Rf6f2 Qd7d3+ Kh7g8 Qd3d8+ Kg8h7 Qd8d6
      8	00:01	      50.624	106.884	+3.69	Qd8d7 Rf6f2 Qd7d3+ Kh7g8 Qd3d8+ Kg8h7 Qd8d6 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4
      9	00:01	     105.080	132.351	+3.68	Qd8d7 Rf6f8 Qd7d3+ Kh7h8 Ke5e6 Kh8g8 Qd3d5 Kg8h8 Ke6d7
      9	00:01	     115.040	129.879	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8d5 Rf2e2+ Ke5d6 Kh7h8
     10	00:01	     129.848	128.841	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6
     11	00:01	     139.632	125.313	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8
     12	00:01	     166.576	121.232	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     13	00:02	     208.864	104.483	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     14	00:03	     246.048	103.344	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     15	00:03	     301.040	103.827	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     16	00:04	     425.720	100.701	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     17	00:06	     510.360	93.943	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     18	00:07	     639.496	93.123	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     19	00:11	     967.320	92.677	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     20	00:13	   1.168.768	94.096	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     21	00:16	   1.470.712	97.155	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     22	00:19	   1.794.056	98.881	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     23	00:23	   2.222.128	99.813	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     24	00:27	   2.774.096	103.708	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     25	00:34	   3.466.056	105.209	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     26	00:41	   4.342.760	107.968	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     27	00:52	   5.462.328	106.985	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     28	01:06	   6.870.568	107.257	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     29	01:19	   8.631.296	111.349	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     30	02:05	  10.766.352	88.396	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     31	02:23	  13.405.704	96.237	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     32	02:45	  16.587.888	103.169	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     33	03:09	  20.398.272	110.298	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     34	03:36	  24.823.512	117.698	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     35	04:08	  30.298.728	125.151	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     36	04:55	  37.095.552	129.031	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     37	05:42	  45.004.520	134.935	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     38	06:30	  54.263.680	142.493	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     39	07:28	  65.595.528	149.937	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     40	08:34	  79.040.464	157.590	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     41	10:12	  99.861.416	167.203	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     42	12:07	 122.940.352	173.101	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     43	14:20	 150.452.920	179.251	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     44	16:55	 183.410.728	185.148	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     45	20:18	 228.039.120	191.801	+3.69	Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
   5/18/2007 4:21:12 PM, Time for this analysis: 00:24:23, Rated time: 1:00:00

0 of 1 matching moves
5/18/2007 4:21:13 PM, Total time: 12:24:27 AM

Trading queen for rook + pawn is clearly drawn:

Code: Select all

[Event "Edited position"]
[Site "DCORBIT64"]
[Date "2007.05.18"]
[Round "-"]
[White "-"]
[Black "-"]
[Result "*"]
[FEN "3Q4/6pk/5r1p/4K2P/8/8/8/8 w - - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]

{--------------
. . . Q . . . .
. . . . . . p k
. . . . . r . p
. . . . K . . P
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
white to play
--------------}
1. Qxf6 gxf6+ 2. Kxf6
*
[D]8/7k/5K1p/7P/8/8/8/8 b - - 0 2

But that does not mean that there is not some path we did not think of.

I trust neither the GMs nor the computers nor myself. I always imagine that I may have missed something important, and they might have also.

There is nothing important in this position, and endgame table bases have already proved that.

Sorry Dan, but you'll never find a way for White to make progress.

Terry

[Dann Corbit]

There is nothing important in this position, and endgame table bases have already proved that.

Sorry, but there are no 7 man tablebase files with pawns constructed. There are no chess engines I know of that have resolved it either, by elimation of chessmen. There is no proof for this position, only highly probable speculation. I also do not attach any particular importance to this position. There is a big difference between a proof and an educated guess, even a highly educated one.

Sorry Dan, but you'll never find a way for White to make progress.
Terry

Amazing. That almost sounds like:
"I think it is a draw. I do not see any way to make progress. "
I wonder who said that.

[Uri Blass]

I agree that this is more convincing and can be used for what I consider as a real proof that I am lazy to construct(I still do not consider it as a proof inspite of the fact that it convinced me).

I think that black even does not need the quare a6 and can do fine even on 7*7 board with only c6 and b6

In order to construct a proof that I am too lazy to do we pracitcally need simply to divide the possible pair of squares of white king and white queen to 12 classes and give the corresponding squares of black king and rook in every class.

After this we need to prove that after white does a move in one of the classes black can capture the queen or make a move that goes to one of the classes.

Uri

[Terry McCracken]

There is nothing important in this position, and endgame table bases have already proved that.

Sorry, but there are no 7 man tablebase files with pawns constructed. There are no chess engines I know of that have resolved it either, by elimation of chessmen. There is no proof for this position, only highly probable speculation. I also do not attach any particular importance to this position. There is a big difference between a proof and an educated guess, even a highly educated one.

Sorry Dan, but you'll never find a way for White to make progress.
Terry

Amazing. That almost sounds like:
"I think it is a draw. I do not see any way to make progress. "
I wonder who said that.

Dan, Robin gave proof on the first page... http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 72&start=0

I don't think it's a draw, I know it's a draw!

[Terry McCracken]

I agree that this is more convincing and can be used for what I consider as a real proof that I am lazy to construct(I still do not consider it as a proof inspite of the fact that it convinced me).

I think that black even does not need the quare a6 and can do fine even on 7*7 board with only c6 and b6

In order to construct a proof that I am too lazy to do we pracitcally need simply to divide the possible pair of squares of white king and white queen to 12 classes and give the corresponding squares of black king and rook in every class.

After this we need to prove that after white does a move in one of the classes black can capture the queen or make a move that goes to one of the classes.

Uri

Huh??

Robin gave proof, and it's quite simple

Page One.... http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 72&start=0