Is this positions drawn ??

[M ANSARI]

Topalov vs. Mamedyrov

[d]3Q4/6pk/5r1p/4K2P/8/8/8/8 w - - 0 63


Topalov gave up trying to win and went for a draw ... but engines see a big plus for white. Is this position theoretically drawn ... or was Topalov too tired to find out if a win exists? Which engine also sees a draw ?

[Tobias Lagemann]

Hi,

the position is a typical fortress (and draw). Topalov and Mamedyrov know this, engines don't.

Tobias

[Terry McCracken]

Hi,

the position is a typical fortress (and draw). Topalov and Mamedyrov know this, engines don't.

Tobias

Indeed, it's a trivial draw.

Terry

[Uri Blass]

Hi,

the position is a typical fortress (and draw). Topalov and Mamedyrov know this, engines don't.

Tobias

Indeed, it's a trivial draw.

Terry

I disagree about trivial.

I believe it is a draw but in order to prove that it is a draw you need to tell me a strategy for black were to put the king and rook against every possibility of squares for white king and queen.

Without it I cannot be sure that white cannot force black into a zugzwang and win the rook by a fork.

Uri

[smirobth]

Hi,

the position is a typical fortress (and draw). Topalov and Mamedyrov know this, engines don't.

Tobias

Indeed, it's a trivial draw.

Terry

I disagree about trivial.

I believe it is a draw but in order to prove that it is a draw you need to tell me a strategy for black were to put the king and rook against every possibility of squares for white king and queen.

Without it I cannot be sure that white cannot force black into a zugzwang and win the rook by a fork.

Uri

Hi Uri,
It seems pretty trivial to me:
1) The rook just stays on f6 while Black's king moves around the squares g8-h8-h7. If the queen is on the eight rank, so that king moves are impossible, the rook can leave f6 to any one of many squares (for example on f2 the rook and king cannot ever be forked, and if the queen is on the 8th rank it cannot also hit the f2 square) and then move back to f6 next turn. There would also be squares on the 6th rank for the rook, if White's king were to guard the f2 square. With so many good potential squares for the rook and king zugzwang will not ever become a factor.
2) Even if you remove Black's h-pawn (a change which can't possibly help Black in this case) tablebases prove the position is still a draw.

[Cubeman]

Also as a general rule.When engines see a big plus from the start of evalution to the end of evalution but it has not grown, even decresed after some time you can be pretty sure no progress can be made.

[PauloSoare]

Hi,

the position is a typical fortress (and draw). Topalov and Mamedyrov know this, engines don't.

Tobias

Indeed, it's a trivial draw.

Terry

I disagree about trivial.

I believe it is a draw but in order to prove that it is a draw you need to tell me a strategy for black were to put the king and rook against every possibility of squares for white king and queen.

Without it I cannot be sure that white cannot force black into a zugzwang and win the rook by a fork.

Uri

Uri, I do not have absolute certainty of what means zugzang.
Could you define accurately what means zugzwang?
Could you give an example based on this position?

Thanks,

Paulo Soares

[PauloSoare]

Hi,

the position is a typical fortress (and draw). Topalov and Mamedyrov know this, engines don't.

Tobias

Indeed, it's a trivial draw.

Terry

I disagree about trivial.

I believe it is a draw but in order to prove that it is a draw you need to tell me a strategy for black were to put the king and rook against every possibility of squares for white king and queen.

Without it I cannot be sure that white cannot force black into a zugzwang and win the rook by a fork.

Uri

Hi Uri,
It seems pretty trivial to me:
1) The rook just stays on f6 while Black's king moves around the squares g8-h8-h7. If the queen is on the eight rank, so that king moves are impossible, the rook can leave f6 to any one of many squares (for example on f2 the rook and king cannot ever be forked, and if the queen is on the 8th rank it cannot also hit the f2 square) and then move back to f6 next turn. There would also be squares on the 6th rank for the rook, if White's king were to guard the f2 square. With so many good potential squares for the rook and king zugzwang will not ever become a factor.
2) Even if you remove Black's h-pawn (a change which can't possibly help Black in this case) tablebases prove the position is still a draw.

Robin, when I was analysing the position with computer help, I understand your words. Rook in "f" file and King, when possible, in g8 or h8.

Paulo Soares

[Uri Blass]

zugzwang is position when you lose because it is you to move.

I cannnot give example from this position but I can give simple example
of different position.

White is in zugzwang

[D]8/8/8/8/5Kp1/6Pk/8/8 w - - 0 1

Note that the fact that I did not see a possible zugzwang in the first position is no proof that there is no line that leads to a zugzwang that I did not see

[nuff]

If you cannot recognise this as a draw get out your chess books and look up endings that are drawn. You are relying too much on your computers and you need to go back to the basics.