Participants WCCC 2007

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pijl

Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by pijl » Tue May 29, 2007 6:54 pm

You should be the last person commenting on this ... for obvious reasons.

I always considered the WCCC as a special championship where programmers used their own creations to compete with eachother. It seems I'm wrong there.
Perhaps I should save myself the days off from work and the hassle with the logistics at home and cancel my participation.
My joy to participate in this tournament is gone. :-(
Richard.

Harvey Williamson

Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by Harvey Williamson » Tue May 29, 2007 7:08 pm

pijl wrote:You should be the last person commenting on this ... for obvious reasons.

I always considered the WCCC as a special championship where programmers used their own creations to compete with eachother. It seems I'm wrong there.
Perhaps I should save myself the days off from work and the hassle with the logistics at home and cancel my participation.
My joy to participate in this tournament is gone. :-(
Richard.
Hi Richard,

Sadly Hiarcs is not going to be there anyway but I do agree with you.

See you at Leiden in October!

Harvey

Gerd Isenberg
Posts: 2128
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:47 pm
Location: Hattingen, Germany

Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by Gerd Isenberg » Tue May 29, 2007 7:26 pm

pijl wrote:You should be the last person commenting on this ... for obvious reasons.

I always considered the WCCC as a special championship where programmers used their own creations to compete with eachother. It seems I'm wrong there.
Perhaps I should save myself the days off from work and the hassle with the logistics at home and cancel my participation.
My joy to participate in this tournament is gone. :-(
Richard.
I don't understand the obvious reasons. Don't you think Thoma's clarification on the permission was helpfull to stop wrong assumptions? I think with the confirmed permission of Fabien as well, it is ok that they are allowed to participate. I have some concerns as well and I can feel with you, but it would be a pity though, if you seriously consider cancelation.

The issue concerning own and original work seems debatable at least and that will be an item on the agenda of the players meeting before the first round will start. Ulf made Toga, the Fruit improvements of Thomas, parallel per node - and with all his parallel Hydra knowledege made these cluster with Kai's idea work. Kai devised the positive pondering approach, explained in the ICGAJ. Quite some original work.

Gerd

pijl

Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by pijl » Tue May 29, 2007 7:38 pm

Gerd Isenberg wrote:
pijl wrote:You should be the last person commenting on this ... for obvious reasons.

I always considered the WCCC as a special championship where programmers used their own creations to compete with eachother. It seems I'm wrong there.
Perhaps I should save myself the days off from work and the hassle with the logistics at home and cancel my participation.
My joy to participate in this tournament is gone. :-(
Richard.
I don't understand the obvious reasons. Don't you think Thoma's clarification on the permission was helpfull to stop wrong assumptions? I think with the confirmed permission of Fabien as well, it is ok that they are allowed to participate. I have some concerns as well and I can feel with you, but it would be a pity though, if you seriously consider cancelation.
The obvious reason is that Thomas started with Fruit himself and is therefor in no position to lecture those that created their engine all by themselves ...
Gerd Isenberg wrote:The issue concerning own and original work seems debatable at least and that will be an item on the agenda of the players meeting before the first round will start. Ulf made Toga, the Fruit improvements of Thomas, parallel per node - and with all his parallel Hydra knowledege made these cluster with Kai's idea work. Kai devised the positive pondering approach, explained in the ICGAJ. Quite some original work.
I do not doubt their contribution in gridchess. And they probably made a nice job out of it. But to me it sounds like dropping (to use that name again) Carl Lewis next to the leader in the Marathon to run the final 100 meters. IMHO that is not fair competition, even if Carl runs that 100 meters by himself.
Richard.

Uri Blass
Posts: 8611
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by Uri Blass » Tue May 29, 2007 7:49 pm

pijl wrote:You should be the last person commenting on this ... for obvious reasons.

I always considered the WCCC as a special championship where programmers used their own creations to compete with eachother. It seems I'm wrong there.
Perhaps I should save myself the days off from work and the hassle with the logistics at home and cancel my participation.
My joy to participate in this tournament is gone. :-(
Richard.
What is the meaning of own creation.

Does it have to be creation of a single person?

Are you going to be against gridchess even if it is called by the name fruit ot fruitCrafty and Fabien participate with it and mention the other programmers as team members?

Uri

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Dr.Wael Deeb
Posts: 9635
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:44 pm
Location: Amman,Jordan

Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Tue May 29, 2007 7:53 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
pijl wrote:You should be the last person commenting on this ... for obvious reasons.

I always considered the WCCC as a special championship where programmers used their own creations to compete with eachother. It seems I'm wrong there.
Perhaps I should save myself the days off from work and the hassle with the logistics at home and cancel my participation.
My joy to participate in this tournament is gone. :-(
Richard.
What is the meaning of own creation.

Does it have to be creation of a single person?

Are you going to be against gridchess even if it is called by the name fruit ot fruitCrafty and Fabien participate with it and mention the other programmers as team members?

Uri
Hi Uri,
I do agree with your point of view and I want you to bear in mind that if Gridchess was a weak chess engine,there wouldn't be such a noise and disagreement from the other programmers....
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

Alessandro Scotti

Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by Alessandro Scotti » Tue May 29, 2007 7:59 pm

pijl wrote:The obvious reason is that Thomas started with Fruit himself and is therefor in no position to lecture those that created their engine all by themselves ...
My gosh, are we going to pass this capital sin to Thomas descendants too? That horse is dead and already playing an harp in horses' heaven, please stop beating it!

pijl

Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by pijl » Tue May 29, 2007 8:06 pm

Uri Blass wrote: What is the meaning of own creation.

Does it have to be creation of a single person?

Are you going to be against gridchess even if it is called by the name fruit ot fruitCrafty and Fabien participate with it and mention the other programmers as team members?
It has nothing to do with being the creation of one person. There are multiple programs around that are created by more than one author. Even the commercial Fruit has (as far as I know) two authors with Fabien and Ryan.

It has to do with commitment to the 'team' effort though. Is gridchess the successor of Crafty and Fruit? If it is: I welcome them to the WCCC and say goodbye to Fruit and Crafty. If it is not ... well, I said enough about that.
Richard.

Gerd Isenberg
Posts: 2128
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:47 pm
Location: Hattingen, Germany

Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by Gerd Isenberg » Tue May 29, 2007 8:10 pm

pijl wrote: I do not doubt their contribution in gridchess. And they probably made a nice job out of it. But to me it sounds like dropping (to use that name again) Carl Lewis next to the leader in the Marathon to run the final 100 meters. IMHO that is not fair competition, even if Carl runs that 100 meters by himself.
Richard.
This would be serialisation but no parallelism. They don't switch engines between game states yet. It is more like Carl Lewis, Waldemar Cierpinski and Gilles Schaeffer have to run the whole 42,195 km parallel as team and have to arrive in common ;-)

Gerd

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Thomas Mayer
Posts: 383
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Location: Nellmersbach, Germany

Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by Thomas Mayer » Tue May 29, 2007 8:19 pm

Hi Uri,
Uri Blass wrote:I understand your point but I do not agree.

I think that a chess program can have more than one author.

What happens in case that some commercial program participates when one author wrote special evaluation for pawn endgame another author wrote special evaluation for rook endgames and the same for many type of endgames.

Do you think that we should not allow this program to compete?
maybe you simply read what Andreas was writing: There is definitely a big difference between real teams (e.g. like Spike) and patchwork like GridChess. Of course scientifically GridChess might be very interesting and I have no doubts about Kai's contribution. But the day for the scientifical stuff is the "Advances In Computer Chess" meeting and not the tournament itself. Like Richard I understand the WCCC as a competition between programmers and teams. And GridChess has a lot of doping inside which in my opinion is not following the original spirit of such tournaments.

When all the programmers have agreed to the participation, okay, then formally this is okay but then you have opened the pandora box and you will never close it again. It's funny that some even want to see a combination of Glaurung & Scorpio as entrant... If this continues I say definitely thank you, play with yourself, get happy with all kind of patchwork.

And by the way, about DOC WAEL DEEB: Oh I would disagree as well in the participation. Even when he would have taken TSCP or MCP as a basis and added the multi node support and his search idea. In that case the basis chess playing thing is still TSCP.

As we already accept clones in a lot of rating lists now we start to accept them in competitions. What has happened to computerchess, I wonder ?

Greets, Thomas

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