Participants WCCC 2007

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Thomas Mayer
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Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by Thomas Mayer » Tue May 29, 2007 8:27 pm

Hi Harvey,
Harvey Williamson wrote:Sadly Hiarcs is not going to be there anyway but I do agree with you.
ah, if you aren't there: May I get Marks permission to use Hiarcs ? Then I may ask Frans and/or Mathias whether I can use Fritz as well so I might build a funny tripple brain of them. I will call that CloneChess, is that okay with you ? Just finally Jaaps permission needed to participate... ;)

Greets, Thomas

Harvey Williamson

Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by Harvey Williamson » Tue May 29, 2007 8:30 pm

Thomas Mayer wrote:Hi Harvey,
Harvey Williamson wrote:Sadly Hiarcs is not going to be there anyway but I do agree with you.
ah, if you aren't there: May I get Marks permission to use Hiarcs ? Then I may ask Frans and/or Mathias whether I can use Fritz as well so I might build a funny tripple brain of them. I will call that CloneChess, is that okay with you ? Just finally Jaaps permission needed to participate... ;)

Greets, Thomas
Yes why not if the others agree ;-)

Guetti

Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by Guetti » Tue May 29, 2007 8:36 pm

Gerd Isenberg wrote:
pijl wrote: I do not doubt their contribution in gridchess. And they probably made a nice job out of it. But to me it sounds like dropping (to use that name again) Carl Lewis next to the leader in the Marathon to run the final 100 meters. IMHO that is not fair competition, even if Carl runs that 100 meters by himself.
Richard.
This would be serialisation but no parallelism. They don't switch engines between game states yet. It is more like Carl Lewis, Waldemar Cierpinski and Gilles Schaeffer have to run the whole 42,195 km parallel as team and have to arrive in common ;-)

Gerd
I think it's not possible to find a correct analogy anyway. It reminds me of the soap box derbys as kids. Some teams tinkered with their self made vehicles for months. Then there were those whose daddies just bought them a thousabd dollar soap box to enter in the race.
Whatever. They will probably never enjoy the same feeling that you have when the Baron or Quark wins a game.

I just fear that will be a bad precedence for future tournaments. This is not merely the fault of the Gridchess team (nothing against them), but of the ICGA, and also of the authors that let clones of their engines enter the tournament, i.e Robert Hyatt and Fabien Letouzy.

pijl

Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by pijl » Tue May 29, 2007 8:42 pm

Thomas Mayer wrote:Hi Harvey,
Harvey Williamson wrote:Sadly Hiarcs is not going to be there anyway but I do agree with you.
ah, if you aren't there: May I get Marks permission to use Hiarcs ? Then I may ask Frans and/or Mathias whether I can use Fritz as well so I might build a funny tripple brain of them. I will call that CloneChess, is that okay with you ? Just finally Jaaps permission needed to participate... ;)

Greets, Thomas
Be Careful: Having Mark as a team member will cost you 250 euro's as you'll be a semi-professional entry :-)
Richard.

Thomas Gaksch

Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by Thomas Gaksch » Tue May 29, 2007 8:47 pm

Hi Gerd,
i wish you very much luck at the WCCC. You are one of the programmer who are very objective and fair. And it is obvious that chess programming is fun for you and you do not want to earn money or win every tournament. you are a great guy. you can accept things which you don´t like and you give everybody a second chance. Not everyone is doing that.

It is as like always in this forum when i comment something. Some people do not want to understand me they only search for negative things in my sentences.

but it doesn´t matter. I quit chess programming. This hobby is taken to seriously from some people here. From commercial programmers i can understand their hate against fruit/toga and me a little bit, because it makes no fun to loose against an open source engine and it could decrease their selling rates. but i cant´t understand it from amateurs.

Have fun with your hobby and i wish you a lot of success.

Thomas

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Thomas Mayer
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Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by Thomas Mayer » Tue May 29, 2007 8:48 pm

Hi Richard,
pijl wrote:
Thomas Mayer wrote:Hi Harvey,
Harvey Williamson wrote:Sadly Hiarcs is not going to be there anyway but I do agree with you.
ah, if you aren't there: May I get Marks permission to use Hiarcs ? Then I may ask Frans and/or Mathias whether I can use Fritz as well so I might build a funny tripple brain of them. I will call that CloneChess, is that okay with you ? Just finally Jaaps permission needed to participate... ;)

Greets, Thomas
Be Careful: Having Mark as a team member will cost you 250 euro's as you'll be a semi-professional entry :-)
oh. isn't GridChess then Semi-pro as well, having Fruit & Fabien as member ? And by the way, is Fritz only semi-pro ? You know, I would have Frans as well as member... Or must I pay then 750 € because Fritz is pro and Hiarcs semi-pro ? Questions over questions... :) But the final CloneChess wouldn't be pro, so I vote definitely for Amateur... ;)

Greets, Thomas

P.S.: Who is that austrian who has a more or less similar concept, I may ask him whether he can help me... :) Because Fritz isn't playing we would ask for the Fritz book as well... OF COURSE... :)

Thomas Gaksch

Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by Thomas Gaksch » Tue May 29, 2007 8:54 pm

thanks for the nice comment. thanks for seeing only negative things in fruit/toga and of course me.

Gerd Isenberg
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Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by Gerd Isenberg » Tue May 29, 2007 8:54 pm

Guetti wrote:I think it's not possible to find a correct analogy anyway. It reminds me of the soap box derbys as kids. Some teams tinkered with their self made vehicles for months. Then there were those whose daddies just bought them a thousabd dollar soap box to enter in the race.
Whatever. They will probably never enjoy the same feeling that you have when the Baron or Quark wins a game.

I just fear that will be a bad precedence for future tournaments. This is not merely the fault of the Gridchess team (nothing against them), but of the ICGA, and also of the authors that let clones of their engines enter the tournament, i.e Robert Hyatt and Fabien Letouzy.
Of course my analogy was wrong. I forget to mention that each team has to carry 100Kg the whole way, so that they will gain from parallelism. How the team devides the charge among the individual team members is up to them.

The ICGA and some participants as well, worry about the low number of participants. We have to play 11 rounds. And as an author of an open source engine - if you would nicely asked to become a "team member" of such a promising project - would you really say no? That seems somehow the consequence of open source programs - avoiding reinventing the wheel - whether we like it or not.

bob
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Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by bob » Tue May 29, 2007 9:15 pm

Tony wrote:
bob wrote:
Gerd Isenberg wrote:
bob wrote:
Gerd Isenberg wrote:http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/icga/t ... 173&lang=6

Now we are already 10. Another big iron - puhh

GridChess by Kai Himstedt and Ulf Lorenz
Thomas Gaksch Toga parts
Fabien Letouzey Fruit parts
Robert Hyatt Crafty parts

No idea whether the Sleep In still exist, but no need to take an expensive hotel. There are nice camping sites near by.
Come on guys, take a week off, register and come to Amsterdam and lets have a huge computer chess party.

Cheers,
Gerd
what is the "Crafty parts" about???
As mentioned in the short description, Crafty has the master role to control the optimistic pondering. They didn't ask you for permission? I am not sure about your license policy and the exact rules of the ICGA, but according to my naive standards I would reckon that asking for permission is required. Same for Fabien and Thomas with source under GPL.

http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/icga/p ... 520&lang=6
Description given in 2007:

GridChess is composed of two major components: 1) The proxy chess engine (Crafty based) performs no tree search itself but has some kind of a master role to control the optimistic pondering with distributed worker clients. As a simplified explanation of optimistic pondering here, one can imagine the worker clients forming a pondering pipeline with expected opponent moves extracting this information from the principal variations provided by the chess engines. 2) Real chess engines (controlled by distributed worker clients), Fruit/Toga based, parallelized with Young Brothers Wait Concept (YBWC). This way a combination of two parallel concepts was realized building the complete GridChess system: The parallel Fruit/Toga base engines using the YBWC may run on high performance clusters, each cluster representing a worker client for the proxy chess engine. Several such clusters are then used for an asynchronous distributed game-tree search with the optimistic pondering method.
OK... this makes a little more sense now. I was contacted a while back and asked about it. My response was along the lines of this:

(a) I'm not going to participate this year as things were thrown together too quickly and there was not enough time to make the kind of preparations we would normally want for playing in a WCCC (hardware, book, program changes, etc.)

(b) I have strong reservations about allowing any "entity" to compete if it is based primarily on one or more chess programs, even if the authors agree. If one of the agreeing authors also participates then I would be 100% against the idea since two entries for the same program should not be allowed (but there is precedent as ICCA allowed "Gunda" (a crafty clone) to enter the WCCC in either 1996 or 1997, so there is a bit of precedent albiet a bad one.

(c) I told them that if the ICGA chose to allow such entries, then I would have no objection, but that I personally strongly disagreed with the idea in general...
Was this in general , or were you told it was about a Crafty derivate ?

Tony
I was told that parts of Crafty would be used as the "controller" while another engine would actually execute the searches. I raised the "clones can't enter the WCCC events" issue when I was asked...

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Thomas Mayer
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Re: Participants WCCC 2007

Post by Thomas Mayer » Tue May 29, 2007 9:16 pm

Hi Gerd,
Gerd Isenberg wrote:The ICGA and some participants as well, worry about the low number of participants. We have to play 11 rounds.
well, I think here we get closer to the real reason why they allow such things like GridChess. Shouldn't they better think about the reasons why number of participants get lower & lower ?
As far as I know they get a lot of money from the tournament site, I had 40.000 $ in mind. With that it's easy to get more participants: how about free hotel, free flight for amateurs ? To allow more and more derivated work definitely wont rise the attractiveness of the tournament. I am very sure that it is not only Richard and me who feels sad about that development.

Greets, Thomas

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