which engine have the best own book??..

[ThatsIt]

Hi Pavel !

[...snip...]

Loop - newllbook.ctg and LOOPandLISTBook2006.ctg? Humorous.

Humorous ??

Best to you !
G.S.

[Rubinus]

Hi Gerard.
Sure.
a) LOOPAndLISTBook.ctg - e.g. 1.c3 or 1.e3. From solid opponents is Loop ever black. Hiarcs and Fritz, no problem balance in black, sometimes to advantage.
b) newllbook.ctg - cca 1/4 way to solid book. Poor tuning for new Loop. Needed more open variants, Loop is speedly, knowledge poor (watch example ICGA: Zap!chess-Loop, Loop-Shredder, Loop-Baron).
Best wishes P.H.

[Uri Blass]

Now I'd like to see which engines are the strongest WITHOUT using opening books!

But by that, only 2 games per pairing make sense, X-Y and Y-X, the rest would be a test of learning functions many don't have and not be representative for the general engine strength.

This is correct only if the games are at the same time control but I see no reason to have games at the same time control.

You can easily get 20 games for every pair
If you play
1 minutes/40 moves
2 minutes/40 moves
3 minutes/40 moves
4 minutes/40 moves
6 minutes/40 moves
8 minutes/40 moves
11 minutes/40 moves
15 minutes/40 moves
20 minutes/40 moves
27 minutes/40 moves

Uri

[ThatsIt]

Hi Pavel !

Sure.
a) LOOPAndLISTBook.ctg - e.g. 1.c3 or 1.e3. From solid opponents is Loop ever black. Hiarcs and Fritz, no problem balance in black, sometimes to advantage.
b) newllbook.ctg - cca 1/4 way to solid book. Poor tuning for new Loop. Needed more open variants, Loop is speedly, knowledge poor (watch example ICGA: Zap!chess-Loop, Loop-Shredder, Loop-Baron).
Best wishes P.H.

Our book was made for chessplayers not only for serverfreaks !
You can use it against other engines of course, but that was
not the main focus for me.
I will never build in all that shit-short-servergames into the
book, be sure.

Best to you !
G.S.

[Rubinus]

Hi Pavel !
Our book was made for chessplayers not only for serverfreaks !
You can use it against other engines of course, but that was
not the main focus for me.
I will never build in all that shit-short-servergames into the
book, be sure.

Best to you !
G.S.

Yes, it see. But, who today play from computers? My ELO is cca 2100, no chance from very skill engines, whatever book. My like opponents is Smarthink (interested play) and weaker, Homer, Romichess etc. Or splendid Chessmaster personalities.
If tournament engines, look weak points all books. And RybkaII.ctg - So far not find weak point ...
I not use shit-short-servergames, but
a) Correspondence games (some moves cca computers work e.g. few day! Or Free style? Some players have monster 8GB database ..., openings good)
b) Computer games, long tempo and solid hw (CEGT, Sedat,tournaments)
c) Select practical players.
Best wishes P.H.

[ArmyBridge]

"Testing with generic opening books doesn't mean that you are testing the'"pure" engine's strength,you are actualy testing the different opening books.... " ok, would you tell me how can I test "pure" engine´s strength??,play FRC ? and about "It is a WRONG CONCEPT of engine strength if you see it only in combination with it's specific tuned book"
I think each engine is tuned in certain style, if i want to study dinamic position probably i use Junior, or Fritz maybe Zanzibar because the STRENGTH of this engines is that... I heard that Rybka is stronger in imbalance position and so on, each engine has strong point´s and if you want to see the strength of engine X ,that is good on Atack , you don´t put it to play modern defence or something like that, you do? ok agree with you: the tester know what they do, test the engine´s with their book and this test tell us that the best engine that handle very well almost all opening is Rybka that´s all , but my point of view is if you want to see Junior on full strengh let it play that it can play good, the own book lead the engine to get position that let it show his great Atack power other way you limit it to play poor
Regards

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

Do you ignore the normal chessplayer, a user who wants to study the games and openings HE is interested in, and he wants to practise HIS repertoire and if he is a club player, most probably practise against the repertoire of HIS opponents.

It is a WRONG CONCEPT of engine strength if you see it only in combination with it's specific tuned book. For most users and buyers, an engine is a tool for analysis and practise, and it is relevant how good it is in ALL openings, across a big variety (wide repertoire), not only in those the engine is especially good in. Engine vs. engine sport for server rankings etc. is something entirely different and only a small niche of computer chess in general. It can be interesting, exiting, entertaining, but it is not a relevant criteria.

(Actually, rankings with own or generic book are not that different anyway, Junior being the only big exception. Didn't notice such a big effect with Zappa, yet.)

Thanks god that the rating list testers of CCRL,CEGT,CSS know what they are doing! Their decision against engine-specific books was right.

We are talking about two different things here Mike....

The first point is the engine-engine competition and trying to get the engine getting the most of it's originaly tuned opening book and trying to get higher in the rating lists.....and no,it's not a small nitch of the computer chess world,actualy most of the computer chess freaks and the buyers are strongly influenced by the rating lists,don't you agree
When a new version of a certin engine appears,people always asks,how much it's stronger compairing to the previous version and not it's new analysing features....

The second point is the analysing is the serious chess player who wants to enrich his knowledge in the opening chess theory,hmmm.....do you think it's wise to use these generic opening books for this purpose,.....noooo,I definitely don't think so

[Mike S.]

no,it's not a small nitch of the computer chess world,actualy most of the computer chess freaks and the buyers are strongly influenced by the rating lists,don't you agree
(...) do you think it's wise to use these generic opening books for this

You are confusing two different things: The main rating lists use generic books/openings, and none are calculated from online chess server games. The conditions on servers are chaotic (different hardware, different books, different settings) and totally unsuitable for a good engine rating list. Chess server engine sport is a small niche with an insignificant number of participants, compared to the total number of chess software users.

(Don't get me wrong: Of course I consider the successful server players to be among the best chess software experts.)

About generic books: Yes! I think they can be useful for the purpose of theory studies, opening practise and -preparation - if they are well done. For example, the Fritz Powerbook is a generic book and has been a long series of editions, year after year. It has it's buyers - money talks.

Btw. I think the books which come with the Fritz engine (full product editions) are not only tuned for the purpose to support the engine. In addition, they contain very many theory lines which are unimpoprtant for engine games (i.e. low or zero move probability), but are clearly meant to support the chess player with a good theory library including rare continuations. In the Fritz 7 book are variations which are not generated from GM games, but from all kinds of chess publications. So, even that supports my view of this topic.

But I see no reason why a company cannot release TWO books with an engine: One as a theory support for the practical chess player, and another one with engine tuning for computer vs. computer games.

It is not realistic, maybe except strong IM or better, that a normal chessplayer needs a super-expert-tuned book for his OWN practise games against a 2700+ chess engine Also, I am almost sure that the strongest players will not let decide an engine book, which theory move to reply. They need to prepare specifically against their next opponent's moves which are to expect, not against the engine's favorites.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

Again you're missing the point Mike,I am talking about the amateur generic opening books and the Fritz'opening book is a commercial opening book of an extreame quality

[cornetmike]

I am always amazed by the quality and variety of Fritz 8's opening book! There are many rare and obscure lines of the King's Gambit, Vienna Gambit, Giuoco Piano, Spanish, etc. This book has everything, and more!

regards
Mikey