New Opening ECO statistics on CCRL site

[Spock]

In case anyone missed it, Kirill added this new feature to our web site this week. The link is right at the bottom of the index page, and here is a direct link

http://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/40 ... y_eco.html

The column headings are clickable, and clicking on a column heading sorts it by that column

I thought it was quite cool and worth a separate mention

[Oscar L]

Thanks!

Is it possible to show engine results by opening as CSS?


http://www.computerschach.de/index.php? ... Itemid=241

[Spock]

Thanks!

Is it possible to show engine results by opening as CSS?


http://www.computerschach.de/index.php? ... Itemid=241

There are no plans for this at the moment, but we'll add it to the list of possible enhancements to think about

[Oscar L]

Thanks for your answer. Waiting for that.

[Norm Pollock]

I think everyone should take ANY "ECO" statistics with skepticism. Nothing against CCRL and I admire their work, but "ECO" stats are inherently ambiguous. There are two major points of view: Take the literal moves as they occur and form the ECO value OR Wait to see how the game transforms and then take the ECO value of the transformed game.

CCRL uses "pgn-extract" to get their ECO values, according to their "thanks" page. "pgn-extract uses the first point of view.

OTOH, Scid and Chessbase use the second point of view and rate the opening ECO on how the game transforms.

I will illustrate with 5 games from the CCRL current 40/40 inter-family pgn collection.

From CCRL, the following 5 games have "A00" as the ECO value:

Code: Select all

[Event "CCRL 40/40"]
[Site "CCRL"]
[Date "2005.12.21"]
[Round "?"]
[White "CM10th Xperience"]
[Black "Toga II 1.1a"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2762"]
[BlackElo "2825"]
[ECO "A00"]
[Opening "Benko's opening"]
[PlyCount "116"]

{Game 1}
1. g3 g6 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. Nf3 c6 5. d4 d6 6. Bg2 O-O 7. O-O Nbd7 8. Bf4
Qa5 9. Qd2 Re8 10. Rac1 Nb6 11. b3 Bg4 12. Rfd1 Rac8 13. h3 Be6 14. e4 Rcd8 15.
Bh6 Qh5 16. Bxg7 Kxg7 17. Ne2 Qh6 18. Qa5 Nxe4 19. Qxa7 Nd7 20. Qxb7 Ndf6 21.
Nf4 Bc8 22. Qxc6 Bd7 23. Qb7 Rb8 24. Qc7 Ra8 25. Ne5 Rec8 26. Qb7 Rcb8 27. Qxb8
Rxb8 28. Nxd7 Nxd7 29. Bxe4 e5 30. dxe5 dxe5 31. Nd5 Nc5 32. Bg2 e4 33. Rb1 f5
34. b4 Nd3 35. b5 Qh5 36. Rd2 Qh6 37. Rc2 Qg5 38. b6 Qd8 39. a4 Qd6 40. a5 Qa3
41. c5 Nxc5 42. Nb4 Ne6 43. Nc6 Rb7 44. Bf1 Ng5 45. h4 Nf3+ 46. Kh1 e3 47. Ba6
Qa4 48. Nb4 Rb8 49. Ra2 Qe8 50. Bd3 Nd2 51. Rd1 Ne4 52. Rc1 exf2 53. Kh2 Rc8
54. Rf1 Rc3 55. Bxe4 Qxe4 56. Raxf2 Qxb4 57. Ra2 Rb3 58. a6 Qd6 0-1

[Event "CCRL 40/40"]
[Site "CCRL"]
[Date "2005.12.21"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Toga II 1.1a"]
[Black "Hiarcs 9"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2825"]
[BlackElo "2717"]
[ECO "A00"]
[Opening "Benko's opening"]
[PlyCount "95"]

{Game 2}
1. g3 g6 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. Nf3 c6 5. d4 d6 6. Bg2 Qb6 7. e4 Bg4 8. Rb1
Qb4 9. Qd3 Be6 10. Nd2 Ng4 11. O-O Na6 12. h3 Nf6 13. a3 Qb6 14. b4 O-O 15. b5
cxb5 16. cxb5 Nb8 17. d5 Bd7 18. Nc4 Qc7 19. Be3 Rc8 20. Rb4 Qd8 21. Rc1 Be8
22. e5 Nfd7 23. exd6 exd6 24. Qe2 Nf6 25. g4 h6 26. Qd2 Kh7 27. Bd4 Bf8 28.
Bxf6 Qxf6 29. Ne4 Qd8 30. Rbb1 f5 31. Qf4 fxe4 32. Qxf8 Nd7 33. Qxd6 Nf6 34.
Qf4 g5 35. Qe5 Bg6 36. Nd6 Nd7 37. Qg3 Rxc1+ 38. Rxc1 Kg8 39. Bxe4 Bxe4 40.
Nxe4 Qe7 41. Nd6 Qe2 42. Nf5 Ne5 43. d6 Rf8 44. Qb3+ Kh8 45. Qe3 Qxe3 46. fxe3
h5 47. Rc5 Nf3+ 48. Kg2 1-0

[Event "CCRL 40/40"]
[Site "CCRL"]
[Date "2005.12.21"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Junior 9"]
[Black "Toga II 1.1a"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2779"]
[BlackElo "2825"]
[ECO "A00"]
[Opening "Benko's opening"]
[PlyCount "97"]

{Game 3}
1. g3 c5 2. Nf3 b6 3. c4 Bb7 4. Bg2 g6 5. d4 cxd4 6. Qxd4 Nf6 7. Nc3 Nc6 8. Qh4
Bg7 9. Bh6 Bxh6 10. Qxh6 Nd4 11. Nxd4 Bxg2 12. Rg1 Bb7 13. O-O-O Qc7 14. b3 d5
15. Ndb5 Qe5 16. Qf4 Qxf4+ 17. gxf4 O-O-O 18. Nxa7+ Kb8 19. Nab5 dxc4 20. bxc4
Rxd1+ 21. Rxd1 Rc8 22. Rd4 Ng4 23. f3 Nxh2 24. Na4 Rc6 25. Rd8+ Bc8 26. Kd2 Kb7
27. Re8 Re6 28. Rf8 Rf6 29. Nac3 Nf1+ 30. Kd3 Be6 31. Re8 Ng3 32. e4 Nh5 33. f5
gxf5 34. Rxe7+ Kc8 35. e5 Nf4+ 36. Ke3 Ng2+ 37. Kf2 Rg6 38. Na7+ Kd8 39. Nc6+
Kc8 40. Nd5 Bxd5 41. cxd5 Rxc6 42. dxc6 Nf4 43. Rxf7 Nd3+ 44. Ke3 Nxe5 45. Rxf5
Nxc6 46. Rh5 Nb4 47. Rb5 Nc6 48. Rxb6 Ne7 49. Re6 1-0

[Event "CCRL 40/40"]
[Site "CCRL"]
[Date "2005.12.21"]
[Round "?"]
[White "CM10th Default"]
[Black "Toga II 1.1a"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2734"]
[BlackElo "2825"]
[ECO "A00"]
[Opening "Benko's opening"]
[PlyCount "76"]

{Game 4}
1. g3 g6 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. Nf3 c6 5. d4 d6 6. Bg2 O-O 7. O-O Nbd7 8. Bf4
Qa5 9. a3 Nb6 10. Qd3 Qh5 11. e4 Bg4 12. e5 dxe5 13. Nxe5 Bf5 14. Qd2 Ng4 15.
Nxg4 Bxg4 16. f3 Nxc4 17. fxg4 Nxd2 18. gxh5 Bxd4+ 19. Rf2 Nc4 20. Ra2 e5 21.
Bh6 Rfd8 22. hxg6 hxg6 23. Kf1 Bxf2 24. Kxf2 Kh7 25. Bg5 f6 26. b3 Nd6 27. Bd2
Kg7 28. g4 Rd7 29. Be3 f5 30. Rd2 f4 31. Bc5 Rad8 32. Ke2 Kh6 33. Bxa7 Nb5 34.
Rxd7 Nxc3+ 35. Kd3 Rxd7+ 36. Kxc3 Kg5 37. h3 Rf7 38. Kd3 f3 1/2-1/2

[Event "CCRL 40/40"]
[Site "CCRL"]
[Date "2005.12.22"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Ktulu 7.1"]
[Black "Toga II 1.1a"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2738"]
[BlackElo "2825"]
[ECO "A00"]
[Opening "Benko's opening"]
[PlyCount "71"]

{Game 5}
1. g3 c5 2. Nf3 b6 3. c4 Bb7 4. Bg2 g6 5. O-O Bg7 6. Nc3 Nc6 7. d3 d6 8. Bf4
Nf6 9. Qa4 O-O 10. Ne1 Qc7 11. Nc2 Nd4 12. Nxd4 Bxg2 13. Ne6 fxe6 14. Kxg2 Ng4
15. Qc2 Kh8 16. e4 Qd7 17. Qd2 Be5 18. Bg5 Bd4 19. f3 Ne5 20. Nb5 Rac8 21. Nxd4
cxd4 22. Rae1 a6 23. Rc1 Rb8 24. Bh6 Rf7 25. Qd1 Nc6 26. Qa4 a5 27. f4 Ne5 28.
fxe5 Qxa4 29. Rxf7 Rg8 30. Rcf1 Qc2+ 31. Kg1 Qxd3 32. exd6 exd6 33. Rf8 Qxf1+
34. Kxf1 a4 35. Ke2 g5 36. Rf6 1-0

I took the exact same games and put them into SCID, then had SCID determine the ECO values. None of the games were rated "A00". This is what I got:

Code: Select all

[Event "CCRL 40/40"]
[Site "CCRL"]
[Date "2005.12.21"]
[Round "?"]
[White "CM10th Xperience"]
[Black "Toga II 1.1a"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2762"]
[BlackElo "2825"]
[ECO "E67"]
[Opening "Benko's opening"]

{ Game 1 }

1. g3 g6 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. Nf3 c6 5. d4 d6 6. Bg2 O-O 7. O-O Nbd7 8.
Bf4 Qa5 9. Qd2 Re8 10. Rac1 Nb6 11. b3 Bg4 12. Rfd1 Rac8 13. h3 Be6 14. e4
Rcd8 15. Bh6 Qh5 16. Bxg7 Kxg7 17. Ne2 Qh6 18. Qa5 Nxe4 19. Qxa7 Nd7 20.
Qxb7 Ndf6 21. Nf4 Bc8 22. Qxc6 Bd7 23. Qb7 Rb8 24. Qc7 Ra8 25. Ne5 Rec8 26.
Qb7 Rcb8 27. Qxb8 Rxb8 28. Nxd7 Nxd7 29. Bxe4 e5 30. dxe5 dxe5 31. Nd5 Nc5
32. Bg2 e4 33. Rb1 f5 34. b4 Nd3 35. b5 Qh5 36. Rd2 Qh6 37. Rc2 Qg5 38. b6
Qd8 39. a4 Qd6 40. a5 Qa3 41. c5 Nxc5 42. Nb4 Ne6 43. Nc6 Rb7 44. Bf1 Ng5
45. h4 Nf3+ 46. Kh1 e3 47. Ba6 Qa4 48. Nb4 Rb8 49. Ra2 Qe8 50. Bd3 Nd2 51.
Rd1 Ne4 52. Rc1 exf2 53. Kh2 Rc8 54. Rf1 Rc3 55. Bxe4 Qxe4 56. Raxf2 Qxb4
57. Ra2 Rb3 58. a6 Qd6 0-1

[Event "CCRL 40/40"]
[Site "CCRL"]
[Date "2005.12.21"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Toga II 1.1a"]
[Black "Hiarcs 9"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2825"]
[BlackElo "2717"]
[ECO "A16"]
[Opening "Benko's opening"]

{ Game 2 }

1. g3 g6 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. Nf3 c6 5. d4 d6 6. Bg2 Qb6 7. e4 Bg4 8.
Rb1 Qb4 9. Qd3 Be6 10. Nd2 Ng4 11. O-O Na6 12. h3 Nf6 13. a3 Qb6 14. b4 O-O
15. b5 cxb5 16. cxb5 Nb8 17. d5 Bd7 18. Nc4 Qc7 19. Be3 Rc8 20. Rb4 Qd8 21.
Rc1 Be8 22. e5 Nfd7 23. exd6 exd6 24. Qe2 Nf6 25. g4 h6 26. Qd2 Kh7 27. Bd4
Bf8 28. Bxf6 Qxf6 29. Ne4 Qd8 30. Rbb1 f5 31. Qf4 fxe4 32. Qxf8 Nd7 33.
Qxd6 Nf6 34. Qf4 g5 35. Qe5 Bg6 36. Nd6 Nd7 37. Qg3 Rxc1+ 38. Rxc1 Kg8 39.
Bxe4 Bxe4 40. Nxe4 Qe7 41. Nd6 Qe2 42. Nf5 Ne5 43. d6 Rf8 44. Qb3+ Kh8 45.
Qe3 Qxe3 46. fxe3 h5 47. Rc5 Nf3+ 48. Kg2 1-0

[Event "CCRL 40/40"]
[Site "CCRL"]
[Date "2005.12.21"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Junior 9"]
[Black "Toga II 1.1a"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2779"]
[BlackElo "2825"]
[ECO "A30"]
[Opening "Benko's opening"]

{ Game 3 }

1. g3 c5 2. Nf3 b6 3. c4 Bb7 4. Bg2 g6 5. d4 cxd4 6. Qxd4 Nf6 7. Nc3 Nc6 8.
Qh4 Bg7 9. Bh6 Bxh6 10. Qxh6 Nd4 11. Nxd4 Bxg2 12. Rg1 Bb7 13. O-O-O Qc7
14. b3 d5 15. Ndb5 Qe5 16. Qf4 Qxf4+ 17. gxf4 O-O-O 18. Nxa7+ Kb8 19. Nab5
dxc4 20. bxc4 Rxd1+ 21. Rxd1 Rc8 22. Rd4 Ng4 23. f3 Nxh2 24. Na4 Rc6 25.
Rd8+ Bc8 26. Kd2 Kb7 27. Re8 Re6 28. Rf8 Rf6 29. Nac3 Nf1+ 30. Kd3 Be6 31.
Re8 Ng3 32. e4 Nh5 33. f5 gxf5 34. Rxe7+ Kc8 35. e5 Nf4+ 36. Ke3 Ng2+ 37.
Kf2 Rg6 38. Na7+ Kd8 39. Nc6+ Kc8 40. Nd5 Bxd5 41. cxd5 Rxc6 42. dxc6 Nf4
43. Rxf7 Nd3+ 44. Ke3 Nxe5 45. Rxf5 Nxc6 46. Rh5 Nb4 47. Rb5 Nc6 48. Rxb6
Ne7 49. Re6 1-0

[Event "CCRL 40/40"]
[Site "CCRL"]
[Date "2005.12.21"]
[Round "?"]
[White "CM10th Default"]
[Black "Toga II 1.1a"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2734"]
[BlackElo "2825"]
[ECO "E67"]
[Opening "Benko's opening"]

{ Game 4 }

1. g3 g6 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. Nf3 c6 5. d4 d6 6. Bg2 O-O 7. O-O Nbd7 8.
Bf4 Qa5 9. a3 Nb6 10. Qd3 Qh5 11. e4 Bg4 12. e5 dxe5 13. Nxe5 Bf5 14. Qd2
Ng4 15. Nxg4 Bxg4 16. f3 Nxc4 17. fxg4 Nxd2 18. gxh5 Bxd4+ 19. Rf2 Nc4 20.
Ra2 e5 21. Bh6 Rfd8 22. hxg6 hxg6 23. Kf1 Bxf2 24. Kxf2 Kh7 25. Bg5 f6 26.
b3 Nd6 27. Bd2 Kg7 28. g4 Rd7 29. Be3 f5 30. Rd2 f4 31. Bc5 Rad8 32. Ke2
Kh6 33. Bxa7 Nb5 34. Rxd7 Nxc3+ 35. Kd3 Rxd7+ 36. Kxc3 Kg5 37. h3 Rf7 38.
Kd3 f3 1/2-1/2

[Event "CCRL 40/40"]
[Site "CCRL"]
[Date "2005.12.22"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Ktulu 7.1"]
[Black "Toga II 1.1a"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2738"]
[BlackElo "2825"]
[ECO "A30"]
[Opening "Benko's opening"]

{ Game 5 }

1. g3 c5 2. Nf3 b6 3. c4 Bb7 4. Bg2 g6 5. O-O Bg7 6. Nc3 Nc6 7. d3 d6 8.
Bf4 Nf6 9. Qa4 O-O 10. Ne1 Qc7 11. Nc2 Nd4 12. Nxd4 Bxg2 13. Ne6 fxe6 14.
Kxg2 Ng4 15. Qc2 Kh8 16. e4 Qd7 17. Qd2 Be5 18. Bg5 Bd4 19. f3 Ne5 20. Nb5
Rac8 21. Nxd4 cxd4 22. Rae1 a6 23. Rc1 Rb8 24. Bh6 Rf7 25. Qd1 Nc6 26. Qa4
a5 27. f4 Ne5 28. fxe5 Qxa4 29. Rxf7 Rg8 30. Rcf1 Qc2+ 31. Kg1 Qxd3 32.
exd6 exd6 33. Rf8 Qxf1+ 34. Kxf1 a4 35. Ke2 g5 36. Rf6 1-0

My conclusion: ECO valuations are not standardized within the chess community. Who's right? It's a matter of opinion. I personally prefer the transformation evaluation over the literal move evaluation.

[Kirill Kryukov]

I think everyone should take ANY "ECO" statistics with skepticism. Nothing against CCRL and I admire their work, but "ECO" stats are inherently ambiguous. There are two major points of view: Take the literal moves as they occur and form the ECO value OR Wait to see how the game transforms and then take the ECO value of the transformed game.

CCRL uses "pgn-extract" to get their ECO values, according to their "thanks" page. "pgn-extract uses the first point of view.

PGN Extract uses second point of view, as you can read at its documentation. Unless the documentation is incorrect.

OTOH, Scid and Chessbase use the second point of view and rate the opening ECO on how the game transforms.

I will illustrate with 5 games from the CCRL current 40/40 inter-family pgn collection.

From CCRL, the following 5 games have "A00" as the ECO value:

...

I took the exact same games and put them into SCID, then had SCID determine the ECO values. None of the games were rated "A00". This is what I got:

...

My conclusion: ECO valuations are not standardized within the chess community. Who's right? It's a matter of opinion. I personally prefer the transformation evaluation over the literal move evaluation.

I suspect this is result of differences in the eco databases used by PGN Extract and SCID. I'll check in more detail when I have time. Thanks for the game examples.

[sje]

Why is the site using the obscure "7-zip" format for game storage? Using a Windows-only extraction tool shuts out Linux and Macintosh users for no good reason. The regular zip and gzip formats are far, far better supported and are platform neutral.

[Kirill Kryukov]

Why is the site using the obscure "7-zip" format for game storage? Using a Windows-only extraction tool shuts out Linux and Macintosh users for no good reason. The regular zip and gzip formats are far, far better supported and are platform neutral.

7-Zip is available on Mac and Linux. Which OS are you using, and did you try spending 1 minute using Google search for 7-Zip for your OS? Also reading the 7-Zip homepage may help.

[Spock]

7-Zip is also genuine free software. WinZip is not.

From the WinZip website:
* WinZip is NOT Free Software
If you are satisfied with the free trial of our software, please buy it after your evaluation period.

7-Zip produces nice small archives which is incredibly important for web-site maintenance

[Martin Thoresen]

7-zip is clearly more efficient than zip. If you download the 7-zip installer, you can open .rar .7zip and .zip files.

Everyone I know uses 7-zip so to claim that it's obscure is a vague statement.