Chess engines, touraments, and Rybka and Junior

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maxchgr

Chess engines, touraments, and Rybka and Junior

Post by maxchgr » Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:28 pm

There was recently an interesting article in chessbase (perhaps 2 months ago) pointing out that it is not always the best player that has the greatest chance of winning a tourament. Suppose you compare the two strongest player: player 1 is arguably the strongest, very solid but has a high drawing quota (he either wins or draws, seldom loses).. player 2 is nearly as strong but he goes all out for his win, he either wins or he loses.. perhaps this can be attributed to his style or perhaps his demeanor. The article stated the idea that player 2 will win far more touraments than player 1.

If you accept this premise, can this be projected on computer chess as well?
Perhaps this idea can be projected on Rybka and Junior? Is it possible that Junior is the reigning world computer chess champion because of it's fearless all-in style of play, and that Rybka's solidness backfires on its chances to win championships (touraments)?

Alkelele

Re: Chess engines, touraments, and Rybka and Junior

Post by Alkelele » Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:58 pm

Link to Rybka's lifetime tournament results:

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... s#pid15336

Rybka won 8/9 tournaments, including the recent world championship, which makes her the reigning world champion.

Uri Blass
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Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Chess engines, touraments, and Rybka and Junior

Post by Uri Blass » Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:36 pm

maxchgr wrote:There was recently an interesting article in chessbase (perhaps 2 months ago) pointing out that it is not always the best player that has the greatest chance of winning a tourament. Suppose you compare the two strongest player: player 1 is arguably the strongest, very solid but has a high drawing quota (he either wins or draws, seldom loses).. player 2 is nearly as strong but he goes all out for his win, he either wins or he loses.. perhaps this can be attributed to his style or perhaps his demeanor. The article stated the idea that player 2 will win far more touraments than player 1.

If you accept this premise, can this be projected on computer chess as well?
Perhaps this idea can be projected on Rybka and Junior? Is it possible that Junior is the reigning world computer chess champion because of it's fearless all-in style of play, and that Rybka's solidness backfires on its chances to win championships (touraments)?
No

Junior is not the reigning world computer champion so the conclusion is false.

The only tournament when rybka lost(world championship of 2006)
was because of loss against shredder and not because of too many draws.

draw against shredder could be enough for rybka to share first place with Junior in 2006

Another point is that if you look at result of WCCC 2007 then you can see that
Rybka won with 10/11 when Junior only won with 9/11 in 2006
so rybka scored better than Junior in winning WCCC.

Uri

swami
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Re: Chess engines, touraments, and Rybka and Junior

Post by swami » Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:49 am

Another point is that if you look at result of WCCC 2007 then you can see that
Rybka won with 10/11 when Junior only won with 9/11 in 2006
Participants are different,Uri.It's possible that WCCC 2006 had stronger participants than WCCC 2007.It doesn't make sense to compare scores of 2 engines in 2 different tournaments.

Uri Blass
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Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Chess engines, touraments, and Rybka and Junior

Post by Uri Blass » Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:25 pm

swami wrote:
Another point is that if you look at result of WCCC 2007 then you can see that
Rybka won with 10/11 when Junior only won with 9/11 in 2006
Participants are different,Uri.It's possible that WCCC 2006 had stronger participants than WCCC 2007.It doesn't make sense to compare scores of 2 engines in 2 different tournaments.
some players pariticipated in both tournaments
results of them in 2006 were

shredder 9
Zappa 7.5
Jonny 6.5
diep 6.5
isichess 5.5

total result 35 points

result of them in 2007 were:

Zappa 9
Shredder 7
Jonny 5
diep 4.5
isichess 3.5

total results 29 points

You can see that they scored worse in 2007 so the tournament in 2007 was stronger.

Uri

swami
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:21 am

Re: Chess engines, touraments, and Rybka and Junior

Post by swami » Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:51 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
swami wrote:
Another point is that if you look at result of WCCC 2007 then you can see that
Rybka won with 10/11 when Junior only won with 9/11 in 2006
Participants are different,Uri.It's possible that WCCC 2006 had stronger participants than WCCC 2007.It doesn't make sense to compare scores of 2 engines in 2 different tournaments.
some players pariticipated in both tournaments
results of them in 2006 were

shredder 9
Zappa 7.5
Jonny 6.5
diep 6.5
isichess 5.5

total result 35 points

result of them in 2007 were:

Zappa 9
Shredder 7
Jonny 5
diep 4.5
isichess 3.5

total results 29 points

You can see that they scored worse in 2007 so the tournament in 2007 was stronger.

Uri
But Uri,You haven't considered a lot of other factors

one of such is: the update of Deep Junior,I'm sure they have had updates since the last WCCC. don't tell me they used Deep Junior 9 in Elista because they might have used it as it would play anti Fritz.

And other factor is you have only chosen common participants to make comparison,you haven't told us about the remaining participants like Deep Junior(which is missing) Ikarus,spike and crafty and Delfi which played last year and I wonder if you are aware of the number of participants in WCCC 2006? 18.
this year:12.

You should also take these factors into account when comparing scores Uri,they make a lot of difference.

As for the number of points scored by each engine you have been pointing out,I can say: more the number of participants: one engine will probably get more points, less participants,less points.

Tony Thomas

Re: Chess engines, touraments, and Rybka and Junior

Post by Tony Thomas » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:10 am

swami wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
swami wrote:

But Uri,You haven't considered a lot of other factors

one of such is: the update of Deep Junior,I'm sure they have had updates since the last WCCC. don't tell me they used Deep Junior 9 in Elista because they might have used it as it would play anti Fritz.

And other factor is you have only chosen common participants to make comparison,you haven't told us about the remaining participants like Deep Junior(which is missing) Ikarus,spike and crafty and Delfi which played last year and I wonder if you are aware of the number of participants in WCCC 2006? 18.
this year:12.

You should also take these factors into account when comparing scores Uri,they make a lot of difference.

.
You do know that WCCC 2006 and 2007 were both 11 rounds.

swami
Posts: 6546
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:21 am

Re: Chess engines, touraments, and Rybka and Junior

Post by swami » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:42 am

You do know that WCCC 2006 and 2007 were both 11 rounds.
Yes,but so what?You just can't compare scores of 2 different engines in 2 different tournaments with a gap of one year and an unequal number of totally different participants,it just doesn't make sense,avlodhaaaan! :wink:

Uri Blass
Posts: 8969
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
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Re: Chess engines, touraments, and Rybka and Junior

Post by Uri Blass » Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:50 pm

The update of Deep Junior is not relevant for the comparison.

I compare rybka's result in 2007 with Junior's result in 2006.

Both play the same number of games.
Rybka scored more points.

There is an evidence that 2007 tournament was harder.

If some human players play in 2 tournaments and score better in the first tournament then it means that the second tournament was probably stronger tournament.

Uri

dj
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Re: Chess engines, touraments, and Rybka and Junior

Post by dj » Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:43 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
swami wrote:
Another point is that if you look at result of WCCC 2007 then you can see that
Rybka won with 10/11 when Junior only won with 9/11 in 2006
Participants are different,Uri.It's possible that WCCC 2006 had stronger participants than WCCC 2007.It doesn't make sense to compare scores of 2 engines in 2 different tournaments.
some players pariticipated in both tournaments
results of them in 2006 were

shredder 9
Zappa 7.5
Jonny 6.5
diep 6.5
isichess 5.5

total result 35 points

result of them in 2007 were:

Zappa 9
Shredder 7
Jonny 5
diep 4.5
isichess 3.5

total results 29 points

You can see that they scored worse in 2007 so the tournament in 2007 was stronger.

Uri
It is obviously fallacious to suggest that 2007 was stronger because Jonny, diep and isichess perfomed worse than in 2006. The point is that there was only one weak engine in 2007 in a round robin. In 2006 there were 18 competitors, of whom 5 (Urugano, Lion, Chaturanga, FIBchess and ETABETA) were very weak, mustering only 10 points between them (mostly games against each other!) It is illegitimate to compare the results of an 11 round all play all tournament with an 11 round Swiss tournament with 18 players. Jonny and isichess both played three games each against those 5 weak engines, hence gaining 3 easy points in 2006 and boosting their overall scores. (Diep gained 2.5/3.) In addition the fact that it was a Swiss meant that in 2006 Jonny and isichess did not play all the top engines (boosting their overall scores) , but were forced to do so in 2007 (reducing their scores). The 2007 tournament may or may not have been stronger than 2006 but not on the basis of your fallacious arguments.

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