The rumors about Strelka beeing a Rybka clone is still alive

[Dariusz Orzechowski]

There is also the case that a clone can produce different results from the original engine in ALL positions. That is the case of taking an engine's source and make heavy modifications, that is build your engine on other's ideas and code. This would still be a clone.....

Interesting. So maybe Rybka is a clone of say, Glaurung? Or maybe TSCP? Don't push a clone definition too far, because it is already difficult for you not to sound ridiculous.

I don't know what is the common denominator of Strelka and Rybka 1.0 but their pv's and evals in a host of positions are essentially different, so all these accusations are a bit one-sided to say the least.

[George Tsavdaris]

There is also the case that a clone can produce different results from the original engine in ALL positions. That is the case of taking an engine's source and make heavy modifications, that is build your engine on other's ideas and code. This would still be a clone.....

Interesting. So maybe Rybka is a clone of say, Glaurung? Or maybe TSCP? Don't push a clone definition too far, because it is already difficult for you not to sound ridiculous.

The fact that such a definition would make Rybka, Hiarcs as also every other closed source engine, a possible clone of an open source engine, does not mean we should reject the definition.
Because the arguments of the definition are logic one's.

Why do you believe that one person can not take the source of Glaurung for example and make many modifications and build from it an engine?
If the modifications are so many then the behavior of this new engine would be completely different than that of Glaurung. But still a clone.
Not a 1 to 1 clone but still he used the original Glaurung's code as a start.

[Leto]

There is also the case that a clone can produce different results from the original engine in ALL positions. That is the case of taking an engine's source and make heavy modifications, that is build your engine on other's ideas and code. This would still be a clone.....

Interesting. So maybe Rybka is a clone of say, Glaurung? Or maybe TSCP? Don't push a clone definition too far, because it is already difficult for you not to sound ridiculous.

The fact that such a definition would make Rybka, Hiarcs as also every other closed source engine, a possible clone of an open source engine, does not mean we should reject the definition.
Because the arguments of the definition are logic one's.

Why do you believe that one person can not take the source of Glaurung for example and make many modifications and build from it an engine?
If the modifications are so many then the behavior of this new engine would be completely different than that of Glaurung. But still a clone.
Not a 1 to 1 clone but still he used the original Glaurung's code as a start.

Sounds to me like you are talking about an engine that is a derivative of another engine, not a clone.

[George Tsavdaris]

The fact that such a definition would make Rybka, Hiarcs as also every other closed source engine, a possible clone of an open source engine, does not mean we should reject the definition.
Because the arguments of the definition are logic one's.

Why do you believe that one person can not take the source of Glaurung for example and make many modifications and build from it an engine?
If the modifications are so many then the behavior of this new engine would be completely different than that of Glaurung. But still a clone.
Not a 1 to 1 clone but still he used the original Glaurung's code as a start.

Sounds to me like you are talking about an engine that is a derivative of another engine, not a clone.

Still illegal.....

[Dariusz Orzechowski]

The fact that such a definition would make Rybka, Hiarcs as also every other closed source engine, a possible clone of an open source engine, does not mean we should reject the definition.
Because the arguments of the definition are logic one's.

Why do you believe that one person can not take the source of Glaurung for example and make many modifications and build from it an engine?
If the modifications are so many then the behavior of this new engine would be completely different than that of Glaurung. But still a clone.
Not a 1 to 1 clone but still he used the original Glaurung's code as a start.

This is nothing but a morbid obsession. Every work is based on something, no one lives on a desert island.

Clone or not, Strelka is an extremely interesting engine for me and I'm happy to have it for free. Even if Strelka had just showed the "true" depths, nodecounts and pv's of Rybka 1.0 (what is not exactly the case), it would have been a valuable engine because I'm against intentional obfuscation of these values as it is done in Rybka 1.0 (I don't know whether it is also the case of the commercial Rybkas).

[George Tsavdaris]

This is nothing but a morbid obsession. Every work is based on something, no one lives on a desert island.

Yes everything is based on something previously discovered by others.
But this is irrelevant to the clone cases.
One can use the ideas from open source engines.
But he can't use the code of others to modify it or not, for producing something and announcing it as his work.

Also one does not have the legal right to disassemble one's EXE and use the findings for his favor.

Clone or not, Strelka is an extremely interesting engine for me and I'm happy to have it for free. Even if Strelka just showed the "true" depths, nodecounts and pv's of Rybka 1.0 (what is not exactly the case), it would be a valuable engine because I'm against intentional obfuscation of these values as it is done in Rybka 1.0 (I don't know whether it is also the case of the commercial Rybkas).

Even if you are against intentional obfuscation of Rybka, this should not justify any illegal action against it.

I also find interesting some clones(not the identical clones just by renaming) and i even don't delete them from my PC, but this has nothing to do with if the clones are illegal or not. They are!
Interesting but illegal.....

[Dann Corbit]

Strelka is not a clone.

Having the same evaluation as Rybka for some positions is not a crime as far as I know.

Unless there has been industrial espionage where code was stolen (and I suppose that the odds of this are zero) then nothing wrong has taken place.

There is nothing wrong with studying how a program solves a problem and emulating this yourself.

Consider this:
A team dissassembled an operating system (MS-DOS) and wrote a specification of exactly how it worked.
A second team took this specification and wrote a clone operating system (DR-DOS, also some others did it too). There was nothing illegal about this.

All in all, I do not think that something like that has happened either.

[Christopher Conkie]

Strelka is not a clone.

Having the same evaluation as Rybka for some positions is not a crime as far as I know.

Unless there has been industrial espionage where code was stolen (and I suppose that the odds of this are zero) then nothing wrong has taken place.

There is nothing wrong with studying how a program solves a problem and emulating this yourself.

Consider this:
A team dissassembled an operating system (MS-DOS) and wrote a specification of exactly how it worked.
A second team took this specification and wrote a clone operating system (DR-DOS, also some others did it too). There was nothing illegal about this.

All in all, I do not think that something like that has happened either.

We need to talk by mail if thats ok.

You say you saw the code Dann.

That big lump of data....right?

I think the rest should be by mail.

Regards

Christopher

[Dann Corbit]

Strelka is not a clone.

Having the same evaluation as Rybka for some positions is not a crime as far as I know.

Unless there has been industrial espionage where code was stolen (and I suppose that the odds of this are zero) then nothing wrong has taken place.

There is nothing wrong with studying how a program solves a problem and emulating this yourself.

Consider this:
A team dissassembled an operating system (MS-DOS) and wrote a specification of exactly how it worked.
A second team took this specification and wrote a clone operating system (DR-DOS, also some others did it too). There was nothing illegal about this.

All in all, I do not think that something like that has happened either.

We need to talk by mail if thats ok.

You say you saw the code Dann.

That big lump of data....right?

I think the rest should be by mail.

Regards

Christopher

Any conversation should be in the open.

His material table is not a hidden, internal binary. It is a data table used in his eval function.

For me, this is a dead issue. I think that the treatment of the Strelka author (including my own behavior initially) is a big embarrassment to the chess community and we should all hang our heads over it.

Get Brian Hoffman's position also. I am sure that he will echo what I have said. I have looked at his code, what it is doing and how it is doing it. Not a clone at all, but interesting and original ideas.

Time to leave him alone and get on with it.

[Christopher Conkie]

Any conversation should be in the open.

You asked for it

His material table is not a hidden, internal binary. It is a data table used in his eval function.

This data table.....exactly what does it contain. By this i mean generally...not specifically.

For example does it contain the values of the pieces used in the evaluation?

Does it contain values for combinations of pieces say for example...

Queen with bishop etc....

Does the table take account of the various stages of a game?

For me, this is a dead issue. I think that the treatment of the Strelka author (including my own behavior initially) is a big embarrassment to the chess community and we should all hang our heads over it.

You can.....i'm too busy....

Get Brian Hoffman's position also. I am sure that he will echo what I have said. I have looked at his code, what it is doing and how it is doing it. Not a clone at all, but interesting and original ideas.

I'm sure Bryan is very nice but Bryan nor you know any Rybka code....

Or do you?

Does the data table contain details of values used in futility pruining, isolated pawns, rook mobility, semi open files...etc etc etc....

Time to leave him alone and get on with it.

I'd rather die.

Regards

Christopher