Sensational! Y.Ossipov talking about STRELKA

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GenoM
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NEW TRANSLATION

Post by GenoM » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:05 pm

Hi all

I hope this translation is more accurate than the first one. Any suggestion to improve it are welcome.

QUOTE:

Y.Osipov:

Ahh again created a mess… I’m already beginning to get used that each of my body movements provokes a storm of paradoxical feelings, which I could not ignore, according to present tendencies of the theory of verbal positivism…
Therefore I’ll tell the whole truth in order of how Strelka was created. I hope this will explain a lot.

1.As the basis of program was taken source code of Fruit (little less than two years ago).
2.The algorithm has been completely rewritten to bitboards. This operation had not changed anything, only improved performance twice (x2).
3.Since then, work has begun on improving the evaluation function and search algorithm. Optimization of evaluation functions was performed by correlation analysis. I sought the maximum correlation between static evaluation and minimax.
4.After Rybka had appeared a thought was borh to make a correlation analysis of Rybka assessment of the positions. I varied weights of assessment functions, I changed heuristics extensions and reductions in the search, and eventually I was able to achieve a very high degree of similarity of behaviour of Strelka and Rybka. In some positions, it was just a perfect match.
5.I was looking for and finding a reliable (and unreliable too) information on the algorithm of Rybka. Having carefully studied the works of Larry Kaufman researches of estimating imbalance material, as I had a great suspicion that Vasik used the same idea.
6.And the most legally suspicious thing : I carefully studied the code of Rybka using disassembler trying to understand the algorithm of its work. Altogether, I studied about 20% of the code. I am not interested in how works UCI-protokol or other functions, such as move generator. I already have my own ones, and I was not intending to engage with any protocol, since I was not going to make an engine.
I was only interested in search heuristics and evaluation function. This allowed me to achieve greater similarity (resemblance) with Rybka. In addition, I found that Vasik walked the same way (path) – he has taken Fruit as a basis, rewrote it to bitboard and included tables of material imbalance of Kaufman. Some of the tables I kidnapped (ravished) from the Rybka.
7. The last point in the history was made by man nicknamed Rybkin. Today we can say-he hammered the last nail in the coffin of Strelka. Unlike most participants in the forum, I believed him because I already knew much about Rybka by myself. It was because of him that I begun to understand the algorithm of how Rybka used tables of material evaluation. Rybkin was not right in one thing – he was wrong in his understanding that this big table was as a result of functions like material_comp_info. I am almost certain that Vasik processed big base of games, and the result of that was that table. In fact, this is the same what Kaufman did in the late 1990s.
8. After all for no apparent reason I wanted to make an engine and participate in tournaments. At the site WBEC I read the requirements for the engines - there has been emphasis on the fact that should be maintained the protocol Winboard and UCI-engines must work through an adapter Polyglot. I decided that writing Winboard-protocol is the shortest path. At least, that has to saving me the study of Polyglot. I looked in the Internet, and found the source code of Beowulf, from which I copied the protocol. Then it turned out that man who wrote Beowulf -- Corbit, subsequently investigated the source code of Strelka, and he was very surprised to find in it the code of Beowulf.
9. The New UCI-version of Strelka virtually has no difference from the first beta. The only thing I succeded to make was to find a functional relationship to the evaluation of material imbalance and somehow to correct these evaluations (assesments). The rest of the source code of Strelka remains virtually unchanged. So I was a little surprised by the allegations that the first version was not clone, but the second one became a clone. I can once again send the sources to Corbit and Hoffmann – let them compare.
That's it the whole story. You can lynch me if my actions have serious criminality. If so, I will not repent (regret ?), and would prefer to remain a free artist, just the same I has been so far. I will live as before and do what is interesting to me. And I don’t care about any ratings, participation in tournaments, all kinds of CCRL, etc. I can live without them, as they -- without me. I am a free man, and not promised to marry anyone.

EOQ
take it easy :)

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GenoM
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Re: Sensational! Y.Ossipov talking about STRELKA

Post by GenoM » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:12 pm

my 2 cents:

Osipov didnt "do just that" -- he definitely did much more than "just that"
take it easy :)

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slobo
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Re: Sensational! Y.Ossipov talking about STRELKA

Post by slobo » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:27 pm

Steve B wrote:thanks George

you guys are amazing that you can read and understand several languages

for me..if i can ever master Google translations i will be happy enough!

:wink: Regards
Steve
ha ha ha

thanks a lot for your humor. it made my afternoon.

regrads hf slobo
"Well, I´m just a soul whose intentions are good,
Oh Lord, please don´t let me be misunderstood."

bob
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Re: Sensational! Y.Ossipov talking about STRELKA

Post by bob » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:41 pm

mjlef wrote:I suppose it all depends on how the program was structured. Tord went from mailbox to bitboard yet all the specifics are well placed in functions. So the search part of the code and even the evaluation looks remarkably similiar.

I am still impressed by this reverse engineering job. But I feel bad. SHould I be impressed by a copy of the Mona Lisa? I guess I am impressed technically, although I suppose many of us could have done the same thing, given enough time...and sleepless nights.
The real issue is whether any of that stuff is true in the first place (reverse engineering is non-trivial). Right now all we have are accusations and explanations. But no facts to speak of.

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Daniel Mehrmann
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Re: Sensational! Y.Ossipov talking about STRELKA

Post by Daniel Mehrmann » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:55 pm

Guetti wrote:
Daniel Mehrmann wrote:
Hi and thanks for the information.

This is a clear violation against the GPL.
As a member of the FSF, i will send a message to the FSF to verfiy possible measures in this case.

Best,
Daniel

Well, the similarity to Fruit can not be very high anymore, else Dann Corbit etc. would have recognised it.
I'm more concernd about the evaluation and tables he used from Fruit or Rybka, which took hundereds of hours of testing to optimize in the first place.
It doesn't count. You can change each byte in the source, it will be always GPL. So, we have a rewritten Fruit with stolen Rybka parts. That what i call a funny clone.

:evil:

I think this shows a new level of cloning and a perfect work anyway. I fear many more will follow if we don't stop it right here and strike back with the full power of the law.

Best,
Daniel

Uri Blass
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Re: Sensational! Y.Ossipov talking about STRELKA

Post by Uri Blass » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:56 pm

bob wrote:
mjlef wrote:I suppose it all depends on how the program was structured. Tord went from mailbox to bitboard yet all the specifics are well placed in functions. So the search part of the code and even the evaluation looks remarkably similiar.

I am still impressed by this reverse engineering job. But I feel bad. SHould I be impressed by a copy of the Mona Lisa? I guess I am impressed technically, although I suppose many of us could have done the same thing, given enough time...and sleepless nights.
The real issue is whether any of that stuff is true in the first place (reverse engineering is non-trivial). Right now all we have are accusations and explanations. But no facts to speak of.
There is one clear fact.

The evaluation and search of rybka and strelka are very similiar based on analysis of chess positions.

How did he get it?
The only possibility except reverse engineering is stealing the code and Vas said that the code of rybka was not in a computer that is connected to the internet.

Uri

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: Sensational! Y.Ossipov talking about STRELKA

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:03 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
bob wrote:
mjlef wrote:I suppose it all depends on how the program was structured. Tord went from mailbox to bitboard yet all the specifics are well placed in functions. So the search part of the code and even the evaluation looks remarkably similiar.

I am still impressed by this reverse engineering job. But I feel bad. SHould I be impressed by a copy of the Mona Lisa? I guess I am impressed technically, although I suppose many of us could have done the same thing, given enough time...and sleepless nights.
The real issue is whether any of that stuff is true in the first place (reverse engineering is non-trivial). Right now all we have are accusations and explanations. But no facts to speak of.
There is one clear fact.

The evaluation and search of rybka and strelka are very similiar based on analysis of chess positions.

How did he get it?
The only possibility except reverse engineering is stealing the code and Vas said that the code of rybka was not in a computer that is connected to the internet.

Uri
I don't know Uri,but the thing is that rybka's secret is almost revealed and the consequences are a complete disaster....
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: Sensational! Y.Ossipov talking about STRELKA

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:12 pm

Daniel Mehrmann wrote:
Guetti wrote:
Daniel Mehrmann wrote:
Hi and thanks for the information.

This is a clear violation against the GPL.
As a member of the FSF, i will send a message to the FSF to verfiy possible measures in this case.

Best,
Daniel

Well, the similarity to Fruit can not be very high anymore, else Dann Corbit etc. would have recognised it.
I'm more concernd about the evaluation and tables he used from Fruit or Rybka, which took hundereds of hours of testing to optimize in the first place.
It doesn't count. You can change each byte in the source, it will be always GPL. So, we have a rewritten Fruit with stolen Rybka parts. That what i call a funny clone.

:evil:

I think this shows a new level of cloning and a perfect work anyway. I fear many more will follow if we don't stop it right here and strike back with the full power of the law.

Best,
Daniel
And what do you suggest,hunt him down in Russia :?: ,wish you a bunch of luck in your mission....
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

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Onno Garms
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Re: Sensational! Y.Ossipov talking about STRELKA

Post by Onno Garms » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:14 pm

Daniel Mehrmann wrote: This is a clear violation against the GPL.
As a member of the FSF, i will send a message to the FSF to verfiy possible measures in this case.
What exactly does the GPL state?

Sure, any code that bases on GPL'd code (even by linking against it) must be also under the GPL. So clearly, if parts of Strelka or Rybka must be under the GPL, the whole program must be.

But suppose, Strelka and Rybka reimplemented the algorithms with bitboards, not copying any line of code. Can algorithms be GPL'd? I don't think so (but I'm not a lawyer).

Guetti

Re: Sensational! Y.Ossipov talking about STRELKA

Post by Guetti » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:35 pm

Daniel Mehrmann wrote:
Guetti wrote:
Daniel Mehrmann wrote:
Hi and thanks for the information.

This is a clear violation against the GPL.
As a member of the FSF, i will send a message to the FSF to verfiy possible measures in this case.

Best,
Daniel

Well, the similarity to Fruit can not be very high anymore, else Dann Corbit etc. would have recognised it.
I'm more concernd about the evaluation and tables he used from Fruit or Rybka, which took hundereds of hours of testing to optimize in the first place.
It doesn't count. You can change each byte in the source, it will be always GPL. So, we have a rewritten Fruit with stolen Rybka parts. That what i call a funny clone.

:evil:

I think this shows a new level of cloning and a perfect work anyway. I fear many more will follow if we don't stop it right here and strike back with the full power of the law.

Best,
Daniel

I agree with you, but probably I belong to a minority.
When I grew up new projects started with an empty page (or later an empty window).
But nowaday projects start from Fruit, Toga, Crafty, and after a bit of coding, they are entered into the WCCC (see Gridchess). And nobody objects or cares about GPL. :(

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