Strongest Fruit - what's the verdict?

[mclane]

why don't you go into the programmers forum and talk with bob hyatt ?

[AGove]

Instead of inviting members outside, why not share your opinions on the different Fruits? Quoting the results of your own tourneys seems besides the point given your own views on statistics. So tell us, in your own words, on Fruit, and on Zappa Mexico too, and why you don't think the latest Rybka is the strongest.

[nczempin]

why don't you go into the programmers forum and talk with bob hyatt ?

Okay, I accept your peace offer

[nczempin]

Instead of inviting members outside, why not share your opinions on the different Fruits? Quoting the results of your own tourneys seems besides the point given your own views on statistics. So tell us, in your own words, on Fruit, and on Zappa Mexico too, and why you don't think the latest Rybka is the strongest.

He was referring to the fact that I (and others) are having a similar discussion, where I am in Torsten's position (only relatively speaking; I'm arguing that fewer games are sometimes needed to draw valid conclusions. With Torsten's results the verdict is very much clearer.

The question at hand was which is the strongest Fruit, and if Torsten has watched all those games he can perhaps give a personal, qualitative opinion. That could then be tested and confirmed, rejected or left inconclusive by playing more games, and subjecting the results of those games to the methodology of statistics.

[mclane]

i am sure you will be able to find out yourself with bean counting.

[AGove]

Thorsten, I am genuinely interested in your verdict on the strongest Fruit - which is after all the subject name of this thread.

i am sure you will be able to find out yourself with bean counting.

I don't count beans, I don't run tourneys - but you do.

[mclane]

why don't you go into the programmers forum and talk with bob hyatt ?

Okay, I accept your peace offer

i will let you know when i have peace to offer. you should not try to fish for draw that early.

[Eelco de Groot]

Thanks Igor, this is interesting! I'm playing 2.3.1 at the moment vs
Rybka 2.3.2a in some 720' games and fruit has won 1 and drawn 2!

However the options screen is too tall, does anyone know how to make
the whole thing appear properly? (this is under XP)

Andrew

Hello Andrew that depends a little on what interface, GUI you are using I think. As far as I know ChessPartner is the only one with a scroll down menu for the UCI options and I have seen no problems there. The new Shredder interface has three columns I was told by Stefan, but now that Shredder 11 is delayed a bit, maybe Stefan could take a look whether that is still enough and whether a scroll down menu would maybe be possible? I hope maybe Stefan Meyer-Kahlen reads here...

By the way I can't quite figure out what is Fruit 05/11/03 HD 1-2 exactly for version? Does it have to do with History Depths?

Regards, Eelco

Eelco, this happens in the Fritz 10 interface

Andrew

Hi Andrew,

Unfortunately I don't have any Fritz interface myself apart from the ChessBase Light demo so I'm not completely sure about every detail but I think most information is to be found in this thread
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15533

Basically the simplest thing to do, if you want to change parameters in Fruit 05/11/03 it is still sufficient to choose a larger screen resolution so all UCI parameters and the Enter or OK buton are still visible, but for Fruit 2.3.1 this does not work anymore (or maybe on 21 inch screen only) so it is best to create a new *.uci file for the Fritz or ChessBase interface.

I am not sure exactly in what folder these are stored but I suppose that is easy to find or can even be changed by the user? I think just creating a new copy of the Fruit 2.3.1.uci file for one with changed parameters is enough, without having to actually make a new engine in Fritz's interface. Make sure to enter a new name in the file after Name =
like:

[ENGINE]
Name=Fruit 2.3.1 xch

as Michael Scheidl explained

A whole *.uci file with default parameters was kindly given by Peter Eizenhammer on page 2 of the thread, that saved some work because in the Shredder interface the default options are not in the file so I had to type them all by hand from the UCI engine to Shredder GUI dialog for the Shredder file example and there were a lot of them! I gave up after the first 40 options or so to list them all;

Hello Eelco,

this is what the *.uci looks like in my Fritz; values are default ones:



[Fruit231]

EGBB Path=egbb\

EGBB Cache=16

OwnBook=2

UCI_Chess960=1

UCI_EngineAbout=Fruit by Fabien Letouzey, see http://www.fruitchess.com/

BookFile=book.bin

Time Allocation=100

EGTB=2

Verification Search=0

Quiescence Checks=1

Quiescence Checks PV=2

Pruning=0

Use Aspiration search=1

Use Fast Eval=2

PPExt=1

Extend Checks=1

Use Search Focus=2

Focus Depth=1

Search Focus Ext=1

Round Eval=1

Play Style=2

Pawn Shielding Hard=100

Pawn Shielding Soft=100

Knight Tropism=100

Queen Tropism=100

King Center Endgame=12

King Sideline Penalty=1

Pawn Opening=80

Pawn Endgame=90

Knight Value=325

Bishop Value=325

Rook Value=500

Queen Value=975

Use PPP=2

PPP Level=15

Start Max PP Level=140

Pawn Protected PP Level=30

Pawn Duo PP Level=30

Rook Behind PP Level=30

Rook Behind Opp PP Level=30

King Attack PP Level=5

King Defend PP Level=20

Pawn Duo=1

Pawn Duo Weight=2

Pawn Duo Weight (Endgame)=1

Pawn Duo File a+b or g+h=1

Pawn Duo File b+c or f+g=2

Pawn Duo File c+d or e+f=3

Pawn Duo File d+e=4

Pawn Duo File a+b or g+h (Endgame)=4

Pawn Duo File b+c or f+g (Endgame)=4

Pawn Duo File c+d or e+f (Endgame)=4

Pawn Duo File d+e (Endgame)=4

Pawn Duo Rank 2=0

Pawn Duo Rank 3=0

Pawn Duo Rank 4=4

Pawn Duo Rank 5=5

Pawn Duo Rank 6=6

Pawn Duo Rank 7=7

Use Knight in Hole Bonus=2

Use Bishop in Hole Bonus=1

Use Bad Bishop=1

Use Queen in Hole Bonus=1

BISHOP PAIR VS NO MINORS=50

Use piece combos=2

QB WORSE THAN QN PENALTY=10

RB BETTER THAN RN BONUS=10

QRB BETTER THAN QRN BONUS=10

B BETTER THAN N BONUS=10

Rook Attack=7

Pieces over queen bonus=0

Rook over Knight endgame bonus=0

Piece Pawn Score Adjustment=1

Contempt Factor=0

Now all you have to take care about is the ranges that every parameter can take but those can be found in other parts of the thread for instance in the Shredder UCIDEBUG dialog that I posted on page 2.

I also have to add that I had some problems changing some parameters for Fruit 05/11/03 correctly in Shredder 9 native GUI in Engine Match mode, I reported this to Stefan but I'm afraid he did not quite read the thread I referred him to and, my bad I have not yet contacted him again about this. The thread I posted this particular problem was a while ago http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15362

So I am afraid I'm still in the dark if this was just my copy or only something happening in the Shredder 9 UCI native interface with Fruit 05/11/03 parameters (and only in Engine Match mode, possibly Engine Tournament Mode but not in Analysis mode). I am not sure about Fritz, but I found no problems in the Engine Research Tool from ChessPartner when changing parameters for Fruit 05/11/03

Andrew I hope this makes things clearer not more confusing

Regards, Eelco

[mclane]

you can easily use all fruit versions in arena. THERE you see all parameters.

[nczempin]

why don't you go into the programmers forum and talk with bob hyatt ?

Okay, I accept your peace offer

i will let you know when i have peace to offer. you should not try to fish for draw that early.

Oh, sorry, your majesty.

You made a good joke, put a smiley in it, and I thought you wanted to finish our pointless discussion. I guess it was only a fake, and I fell for it.

Perhaps you should keep your Streitsucht to the CTF forum.