CITRINE TIMES LEVELS ? force ELO, mistake manual, thinking

[Karmazen & Oliver]

CITRINE TIMES LEVELS ? force ELO, mistake manual, thinking

Ok..

Some Days ago, we discussed about the real force in the times for move in CITRINE...

I play this game in level "b4"... the game is very pasive for citrine black... ( citrine don´t play similar this in level "c3" or "c2") .. bad...

see coment help of the FANTASTIC program chess TIGER 15.2 on palm:



I´m thinking if CITRINE use all ours time ( time in other player) while we are thinking... if the level is 30 or 15 seconds for move ? thinking citrine only that time (15 or 30 ) while we are thinking... and move fast his move because he thinking that is the best move in that time...?

ok. you will see...

Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "Arena Chess software: Novag-Chessboard"]
[Date "2007.11.22"]
[Round "?"]
[White "OLIVER"]
[Black "CITRINE"]
[Result "*"]
[Time "00:00"]
[TimeControl "Test"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "40"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. e3 e6 3. c4 d6 4. Nc3 Be7 5. Qc2 Nc6 6. a3 O-O 7. Be2 a6 8.
O-O Bd7 9. b4 Kh8 10. Bb2 Be8 11. Rfd1 Bd7 12. Rac1 Rb8 13. d4 Qe8 14. h3
Bc8 15. Qd3 Bd7 16. Rd2 Nd8 17. Bd1 Bc6 18. Ne1 Ra8 19. Bc2 h6 20. Bb1 Rg8
*

Ok. it´s a pasive positions for black, but that is the problem of time!move... this times are not elastic... ¿...Bx...?



This is a good positions for white, ok. It´s a interesting positions to see HOW citrine move to defender his pasive position....

the plan is simple, we threaten e4, e5, and after Citrine move knight (horse... , donkey maybe) we ++ in h7... OK CItrine not permit us to do this and it will sacrifice his knight or in better moves, or it will block that diagonal, or defender H7...

ok if you like more a REAL board... see image:


joke ?

if we analisys that positions with engines PC, we can see that in times < 30 seconds not it´s easy > 12-15 plys...

see in a DUAL 2,8 Ghz... 2048 ram use 512 MB in modules:

Engine PC:

rybka 2,2n - < 60 seconds

Ch7 += 0.7
Ch5 += 0.8
d6-d5 ?¡ +- 1.~

Fritz 9 - < 30 seconds

Ch7 += 1.~
Ch5 += 1.~
d6-d5 ?¡ +- 2.~

Chess TIGER 2007 - < 30 seconds

Ch7 += 1.~
Ch5 += 1.~
d6-d5 ?¡ +- 2.5~ > ¡

Chess Tiger 15 - < 30 I think that tiger 2007 not always thinks correct similar.

g6 OK... chess tiger ve problemas en la diagonal...
d6-d5 +- = 2.~

The theme is that the BETTER move not is d6-d5 when white move e4, better are Ch5 and Ch7 ( thinking send it to f8 that square is very good to defender 0-0)

When we programing CITRINE in levels "D", plys fixed, in "D5"... ply 5 citrine move in 10 seconds d6-d5... on the other hand, when we programing ( take back these moves (2) ) and go to setup... in "D6"... ply 6, citrine thinking near 30 seconds and move Ch7... ¡ ok

The better moves ...the position is bad, the best defense... for solution are among ply 5 and ply 7,


after e4, citrine move d6-d5 ?, and after e4-e5, lost horse or donkey, LEVEL A2. or B4 or C2...


find: Ch7 - LEVEL C3 ¡ or B5 or A3 ...


find: Ch5 in some intents ... LEVEL C3 if we are thinking some time in moves previous... is citrine use better time of other player in sudden Death ?¡

Now the surprise comes:

EL nivel 40 mov. / 15 min ( A2 )in THEORY it seems but strong that the level C3...( all game in 10 mins) ¡?

(eye, presumably, before serious better not to have been in a superior level that finds Ch7 or Ch5, for not favoring that stored in the memory, hast-table: 3 k?)

On the level A2, CITRINE was thinking after e4, near 10 seconds and move d6-d5 ¡

If we change ( take back) and "c3" citrine was thinking near 25 seconds and move Ch7 or Ch5 ¡...

Why CITRINE Use more time in level "Cx" ¿10min? that in A2 ¿15 min?

I suppose two explanations:

OR the MANUAL TIMES LEVELs "A" are mistake. and level A2.. not is game in 15 mins... maybe in 5 mins.../ mov... and A3 not is 30 min, maybe 15 min... scale -one level

it´s need check it with a real game and see if citrine use all his time... or a lot of it.. or a Macht CITRINE A2 versus CITRINE C3... ( I don´t have two citrine but I would not care it )

I also think that CITRINE uses the time of the contrary one better in the levels C ...

To my I don't find logical that it thinks LESS time the first move in the levels "A" that in the levels "C" (sudden Death level)... simply for that EACH 40 moves, it will will have more time ...


Capture MANUAL.

In summary:

Or the scale of times this WRONG in the MANUAL.
Or CITRINE uses the time of the contrary one in the TIMES of SUDDEN death, what would make it much stronger in 30 mins for game.
Or Depending on the LEVEL the programming changes in the search trees.
Or in the times of xx second / move... they are bad for that doesn't take advantage of the whole time of the contrary one, but alone the same seconds that she would think of that time. with that that poorly will have good results in 30 seconds / move... ( bad )

%%%%%%%

The certain thing is that A2 gives me less problems than in C3... if this goes repeating in the superior levels they understand each other many results. (maybe some mathc look better for citrine if use "Cx" or "the next up level that are incorrect in manual... A2 not is 15 min... and A7 not is a game for SDDF... 40 mov in 2 hours...

is it truth, is not? dear friends? somebody can do re-match againg ++

Bye from SPAIN. And CITRINE forever

Link original post:
http://meca.mundoforo.com/aqui-vp1214.html#1214 ¿only spanish
http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=4673#4673 +english

and here ...

[Mike S.]

Please don't post gigabytes of pics... Some people have download volume limits or slow connections. - You could post text links to big pics though, with a KB size info.

Thanks!

You can post diagrams like this: Start writing a line with [D] and put a FEN string, for example 2kr3r/pppqbppp/2np4/8/5Bb1/2P2N2/PPPQBPPP/2KR3R w - - 0 11 of the position after it, like

[D]2kr3r/pppqbppp/2np4/8/5Bb1/2P2N2/PPPQBPPP/2KR3R w - - 0 11
The board software creates the diagram from the FEN string, automatically. You get FEN strings from the Fritz interface, by choosing Edit/Copy/Copy Position if you have configured it to use FEN for positions, in Tools/Options, Clipboard. That reduces traffic/download volume, and creating/uploading images to show diagrams is not required.

As for the question of using the opponent's time: I don't know the Citrine, but many other chess computers, and normal is that they use ALL the opponent's time if the permanent brain is on. You can test it with a position where the expected move the human opponent will make is obvious, or even forced, and a mate announcement can follow which needs a certain time to calculate.

[Karmazen & Oliver]

Please don't post gigabytes of pics... Some people have download volume limits or slow connections. - You could post text links to big pics though, with a KB size info.

OK, thanks ... but are you sure .... ?. I make those post like to my I like it... , and I think that is better... presentation...

You can post diagrams like this: Start writing a line with [D] and put a FEN string, for example 2kr3r/pppqbppp/2np4/8/5Bb1/2P2N2/PPPQBPPP/2KR3R w - - 0 11 of the position after it, like
[D]2kr3r/pppqbppp/2np4/8/5Bb1/2P2N2/PPPQBPPP/2KR3R w - - 0 11
The board software creates the diagram from the FEN string, automatically.

OK. the board software DON´t CREATE automatic... and it´s is bad for server... ( my link not is bad for this server... your link YES...)


<1k... ok ~0.5 k

other <1k... ok ~0.5 k

other ... other <1k... ok ~0.5 k

other... <1k... ok ~0.5 k

You get FEN strings from the Fritz interface, by choosing Edit/Copy/Copy Position if you have configured it to use FEN for positions, in Tools/Options, Clipboard.

If you CAN test positition you CAN copy to clipboard the GAME "pgn"... I like more have all game position... and the end position only need go to end anotation... in Edit - copy - copy to clipboard game PGN in software ARENA CHESS... for example...

That reduces traffic/download volume, and creating/uploading images to show diagrams is not required.

<1k... ok ~0.5 k

continue to ... 64 to do ONLY ONE board ¡

in each square your you carry out a petition of some bytes (and 64 * some bytes ...) => big ONE simple file *.jpg ( *.pgn < small too )

http://64.68.157.89/forum/images/chess/wq.gif

the server that respond you is talkchess. (http://64.68.157.89/)

in that image:

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/8085 ... on1rs6.jpg


the load is NOT for this server... and donwload is more fast in some moments because ONLY is ONE petition of ONE FILE ¡ if you have better conection , normal for this time... ( FEN need 64 small files ... near similar Kb... )

it is a lot but beautiful that the FEN, and he/she also has graphics and arrows...and plans... ok ?

As for the question of using the opponent's time: I don't know the Citrine, but many other chess computers, and normal is that they use ALL the opponent's time if the permanent brain is on. You can test it with a position where the expected move the human opponent will make is obvious, or even forced, and a mate announcement can follow which needs a certain time to calculate.

Not only that .. the post speak about that LEVEL "A2"... 40 mov / 15 min... is more fast respond in CItrine that LEVEL "C3"... ALL game in 10 min...

this is ilogical... and maybe A2 < 15 min... maybe 10 or 5 ....

bye. (and remember that the things ARE NOT what you/they seem, )

postscript: this topic already came out one year ago, in the 2006, I thought that it had been clear, but I already see erase that post it was an error on the part of the moderators and talkchess has some problems in the face of the better novelties...

I have created this post in

http://meca.mundoforo.com/image-vp1214. ... 73024#1214 (without problems)

http://hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=606 (without problems)

http://users.boardnation.com/~chesscomp ... eadid=1450 (without problems)

if... Some people have download volume limits or slow connections... ok if this is correct these people not have RAM to store 64 *. gifs to FEN positions, and have not arrows, and plans ; -)

(...maybe all mails web have more heavy load that his post...)



bye from Spain... oliver

[Robert Weck]

OK, thanks ... but are you sure .... ?. I make those post like to my I like it... , and I think that is better... presentation...

But Michael is right: so many big pictures make your postings nearly unread- and understandable! Links to pictures (if they are really necessary; the picture of the Citrine level chart for example, is not) are much better! (at least in my eyes!)


best regards,
Robert

[Karmazen & Oliver]

...are much better! (at least in my eyes!)

best regards,
Robert

... of course ¡¡¡ and for my eyes too ¡

( 45 k * 4 image + necesary capture manual + necesary capture mensage chesstiger + text )

it Do a SUPER GIGA BYTE < 500 k ¡¡¡ only need some seconds with a simple modem 56 k.... ( remember that FEN position need 500 byte * 64 ~ 30 k for board... too, and not have colours...)

( of course the web mail,s yahoo, hotmail, google gmail... have a lot of very bIG, enormus more load... webs )

Maybe the simple www.google.es or www.yahoo.com have almost more FAT load that 200> <500 K...

[Mike S.]

The FEN based diagrams ARE created automatically if you follow the simple instructions. Also, if you count the bytes of the diagram components, you forget that those have to be downloaded only ONCE to the computers of the readers, each. Then, they are in the local browser cache. For your large diagram graphics, every new position is a new download.

You replied like "that's how I like it" but please consider, this is a message board and not your homepage to put a graphics gallery at. - If people are annoyed, they will avoid opening threads you start and you get no replies. Also, I must admit I find your way to write difficult to read. I suggest to keep it simple & clear.

The server has no problem with the [D] diagrams, because if it had problems, CCC wouldn't offer that service.

[Albert Silver]

Please don't post gigabytes of pics... Some people have download volume limits or slow connections. - You could post text links to big pics though, with a KB size info.

Thanks!

You can post diagrams like this: Start writing a line with [D] and put a FEN string, for example 2kr3r/pppqbppp/2np4/8/5Bb1/2P2N2/PPPQBPPP/2KR3R w - - 0 11 of the position after it, like

[D]2kr3r/pppqbppp/2np4/8/5Bb1/2P2N2/PPPQBPPP/2KR3R w - - 0 11
The board software creates the diagram from the FEN string, automatically. You get FEN strings from the Fritz interface, by choosing Edit/Copy/Copy Position if you have configured it to use FEN for positions, in Tools/Options, Clipboard. That reduces traffic/download volume, and creating/uploading images to show diagrams is not required.

I'm guessing from the nature of the complaint that you are accessing via a wireless subscription or a smartphone. I was pretty intrigued at the comment on the size of the pics, since they are only about 110k each, which might have been prohibitively large some years ago, but today?

Admittedly, viewing the post on a PDA or Smartphone can be inconvenient, but these limitations are true of most sites, unless they have specific Mobile versions such as CNN, Google, Gmail, etc. I checked on my PDA out of curiosity, and found that viewing was best in landscape mode, with the pics automatically resized by the browser, though it was less than ideal.

How and where are you viewing the pages?

Albert

P.S. Just realized you probably hate my new, albeit temporary avatar, for the reasons above.

[Karmazen & Oliver]

I checked on my PDA out of curiosity, and found that viewing was best in landscape mode, with the pics automatically resized by the browser

Albert

P.S. Just realized you probably hate my new, albeit temporary avatar, for the reasons above.

YES ¡¡¡ resize... I´m using a simple PsP... in a small boar to see this POST... and it´s a donwload more fast in single image boar that FEN positions... because on wi fi conections... conect to 64 small files( CCC server talkchessabout ) is more slowly that ONE conection to a upload server image, that HAVE a lot of more "wide of band" to upload ...


In the other hand... the board images are 45 k... no 110 k... and BOARD FEN have ~ 30k - 40 k...

mike say that this only download the fisrt time... but the problem is that in THIS TODAY exits any person that have problem with this post... maybe that person have not RAM to store the broser CACHE...

( I like eraser... habitually the Cache Broser... ) and in that situation THIS SERVER have more problems that if I use other server to upload BOARDS...

In other theme... the smart phones. or my Nokia N95... have reset cache broser ( similar sony PsP ) and in a lot of situations the BOARD FEN are not download completely...

ok. bye.

[Karmazen & Oliver]

The FEN based diagrams ARE created automatically if you follow the simple instructions. Also, if you count the bytes of the diagram components, you forget that those have to be downloaded only ONCE to the computers of the readers, each. Then, they are in the local browser cache. For your large diagram graphics, every new position is a new download.

If some people have problems with image BOARD 45 K... maybe have not RAM to store cache broser ...

if you, we, they use FEN with brosers that not permit STORED that 64 small image < 1k ) maybe the LOAD for THIS server is a BAD solution...

OK... maybe YOU must wait... 10 seconds... or 20 seconds to SEE this post... but the TRAFIC for this server is more small that in your case...

also, graphics, arrows and plans cannot be added in the position FEN, on the other hand the capture of a board is a lot more fast ...

You replied like "that's how I like it" but please consider, this is a message board and not your homepage to put a graphics gallery at. -

OK... I post a lot of images of CITRINE - IN - OUT ... hardware ... and reviews... and some users in 2006 say that... but THE MODERATORS of this web say me that NOT EXITS ANY PROBLEM with my post..

are you MODERATOR ?

If people are annoyed, they will avoid opening threads you start and you get no replies.

OK... I write in 3 forums about chess and always have post replies...

other people have told me that they usually create here (talkchess) social classes...

they are accustomed to allies to ignore some Users ....

it is you free of making it, but your you will give other reasons

we are in 2007... ( not in 1987) ... USA has the best connections in internet of the world...

and the rest of the world also... using a simple modem the problems is not even given that you comment and also the load for this server is smaller... that with YOUR FEN... because that FEN are in THIS SERVER... and image extern NO are here.

you are not objective ...

The server has no problem with the [D] diagrams, because if it had problems, CCC wouldn't offer that service.

This is a forum chess... It is logic offer service FEN... but this doesn't mean that it is not a load in traffic BYTES...

IN this world, the INTERNET 2.0 need IMAGES ¡¡¡



postcript:

YOU has never heard the proverb:

An image is worth more than a THOUSAND WORDS ... (Value)

[Karmazen & Oliver]

read this...

http://64.68.157.89/forum/viewtopic.php?p=160802#160802

I try DO all your coments... using FEN, not using image directly, link url, info size...

more options, dear MIKE ?

bye from Spain.