Strelka -- Open source

[Christopher Conkie]

In an interview about 1.5 years ago Vasik Rajlich did say Rybka had about 5-10% Fruit in it. No one took notice then. I don't think he has ever given credit to Fabien Letouzey.

I made the interview

Vas didn't say he has taken Code, but ideas of Fruit what is OK.

"21. Alexander Schmidt:

We had our first contact when I had questions about a similarity to Fruit in the search, others found similarities in the evaluation. Some people where a little bit suspicious that Rybka could be a clone of the open source engine. In the meantime it is clear that Rybka is no clone but you used ideas of Fruit (I guess all other serious engine programmers had a look at Fruit too). How strong would Rybka actually be if the Fruit code would have never been published?

Vasik Rajlich:

It's a good question. I don't want to get too specific about which ideas from Fruit I think are really useful, but they fall into two categories:

1) Very specific tricks, mostly related to search.
2) Philosophy of the engine (and in particular of the search).

Fruit could really hardly be more useful along both of these dimensions. Fabien is a very good engineer, and also has a very clear and simple conception of how his search should behave.

Anyway, if I really had to give a number - my wild guess is that Rybka would be 20 rating points weaker had Fruit not appeared."

http://www.superchessengine.com/

Nice to see you smiling again, Alex.
You like Vas & Rybka, don´t you?

But if Vas uses Fabien´s ideas, don´t you think he should give Fabien some credit? Where Rybka would be without "5-10% of Fruit"?

And how do you know it is only "5-10% of Fruit"? Have you seen Rybka´s code?

You really cant read can you?

[slobo]

Suppose that Newton and Leibnitz had invented calculus and kept it for themselves. If someone found their writings and wrote their own book on calculus, did that person do a good thing or a bad thing? In one sense, they did a good thing because they gave calculus to the world. But in another sense they did a bad thing because they took the work of another author without their permission.

I have feelings in both directions and I really can't reconcile them so I won't pretend to have an answer.

One thing that is morally clear to me (but it is only *my* opinion, which is no better than anyone else's):
There should have been honest disclosure of the sources from the start.

Now, that having been said, ultimately acceptance of a chess program depends upon acceptance from the chess community. Every opinion is one tiny voice but the total sum of the voices will average out t

o something (I don't know what it is).

What I am trying to say is that I do not see the issues as black and white and obvious. I also do not think Mr. Osipov has meant any harm as the original intention, but that is just a guess. At any rate, I am not in a position to pontificate on this because I don't feel qualified to go beyond what I have already said.

If God had forgotten his plans for the creation of the World and I would have found his notes in a MCDonalds Drive In, I would have felt entitled to give this World to the People. No doubt about that one. Would that have been a good thing to do or a bad thing?

No, dear expert, you have left real life and its dimensions, methinks. Until a few moments ago I thought that an expert here would speak without any business bias. Know what I mean? No IBM bias (contract) that ordered experts to psych out Kasparov and then cover up the fact by simply losing memory of decent science; remember, it was sort of research where Kasparov was the invited and for his chess talents chosen client, but NOT engaged to demonstrate his formerly widely known auto-suggestive suspicions on his own mind - in front of a chessplaying machine that was operated by the IBM team.

Could you please repeat for the lay readers what Strelka author has "given" to the computerchess community and mankind?

It's frightening how you wind your expert status so that you must not decide (in public) what your knowledge would tell you. Back from Newton & Cantor you fetch the ticket of friendship now so that you cant tell anymore what's right and what's wrong. But there is always help.

When God created the World there was nothing beautiful before and when he created computerchess there was the schism between coffee-house patzers and imperfectly calculating GM stars. But now we can exactly tell who is stronger. It's you or me with our Fritz or Rybkas.

Isnt it a wonder how Vasik created Rybka and made it stronger than everything on dvd? Did Strelka author XY achieve the same wonder? And you as an expert cant tell us that what Vas achieved isnt thinkable by mere cheating but what Strelka and Toga architects achieved is well comparable to Fruit and possibly Rybka 1.0? You cant or you dont want to speak it out? I ask as a lay who cant decide what is speakable at all. Please excuse me if I may sound impolite but I do just want to know exactly if you cant speak or dont want to speak because your relationsships in the community.

I may add a personal note to all experts. Please do realise that you are judge and advising expert in one. You simply dont have the exit of no say. If you experts dont tell what you know about the truth THEN you betray our whole community because there wont be a court where we could get the truth. So, please stand up and say the truth.

If nobody is there I must call my old friend in Alabama! Bob, please make the situation a little bit clearer. Thank you.

Rolf,

if you can say more than Dann, do it.

If you cannot, be silent. You are putting pressure on him because you want him to say what you want to hear.

[slobo]

In an interview about 1.5 years ago Vasik Rajlich did say Rybka had about 5-10% Fruit in it. No one took notice then. I don't think he has ever given credit to Fabien Letouzey.

I made the interview

Vas didn't say he has taken Code, but ideas of Fruit what is OK.

"21. Alexander Schmidt:

We had our first contact when I had questions about a similarity to Fruit in the search, others found similarities in the evaluation. Some people where a little bit suspicious that Rybka could be a clone of the open source engine. In the meantime it is clear that Rybka is no clone but you used ideas of Fruit (I guess all other serious engine programmers had a look at Fruit too). How strong would Rybka actually be if the Fruit code would have never been published?

Vasik Rajlich:

It's a good question. I don't want to get too specific about which ideas from Fruit I think are really useful, but they fall into two categories:

1) Very specific tricks, mostly related to search.
2) Philosophy of the engine (and in particular of the search).

Fruit could really hardly be more useful along both of these dimensions. Fabien is a very good engineer, and also has a very clear and simple conception of how his search should behave.

Anyway, if I really had to give a number - my wild guess is that Rybka would be 20 rating points weaker had Fruit not appeared."

http://www.superchessengine.com/

Nice to see you smiling again, Alex.
You like Vas & Rybka, don´t you?

But if Vas uses Fabien´s ideas, don´t you think he should give Fabien some credit? Where Rybka would be without "5-10% of Fruit"?

And how do you know it is only "5-10% of Fruit"? Have you seen Rybka´s code?

You really cant read can you?

I think you have problems to see my question:
Have you seen Rybka´s code, or not, to check up this numbers "5-10%"?

[Alexander Schmidt]

You like Vas & Rybka, don´t you?

I don't even have Rybka 2, I only purchased Rybka 1.2.

But if Vas uses Fabien´s ideas, don´t you think he should give Fabien some credit? Where Rybka would be without "5-10% of Fruit"?

Read the interview, credits enough?

And how do you know it is only "5-10% of Fruit"? Have you seen Rybka´s code?

LOL, ROTFL

I never said it's 5-10%

Why should Vas give me his sources?

Have you seen sources of Fritz, Shredder, ZAPPA?

Which programmer didn't use Fruit ideas, ever wondered from where is the ELO incrase since Fruit?

You are really funny

smileing again

ROTFL


PS: Please stop now asking the same things again and again. Everything is said in the thread...

[slobo]

You like Vas & Rybka, don´t you?

I don't even have Rybka 2, I only purchased Rybka 1.2.

But if Vas uses Fabien´s ideas, don´t you think he should give Fabien some credit? Where Rybka would be without "5-10% of Fruit"?

Read the interview, credits enough?

And how do you know it is only "5-10% of Fruit"? Have you seen Rybka´s code?

LOL, ROTFL

I never said it's 5-10%

Why should Vas give me his sources?

Because Fabien gave his sources to all of us.
Vas could give his codes only to you, because you like him, or because of that "5-10% of Fruit" if you don´t like him.

Have you seen sources of Fritz, Shredder, ZAPPA?

Look Alex, I have never pointed out to any program claiming "it is clone, it is clone!". So, I do not need to see any source. I only like to look at engines playing.

Which programmer didn't use Fruit ideas, ever wondered from where is the ELO incrase since Fruit?

Exactly. But you see only Strelka as a clone.

You are really funny

smileing again

If I am funy, no need to be angry. Simply: smile.

PS: Please stop now asking the same things again and again. Everything is said in the thread...

Alex, FYI, I don´t like to hear orders.
Don´t you think it would be better if you stop answering my questions?

(Look: it is a suggestion, not an order.)

[Aleks Peshkov]

If you experts dont tell what you know about the truth THEN you betray our whole community because there wont be a court where we could get the truth. So, please stand up and say the truth.

I personally do not believe in existence of the truth. Desire to judge is a sin. Do not forget court goddess is blind.

[slobo]

If you experts dont tell what you know about the truth THEN you betray our whole community because there wont be a court where we could get the truth. So, please stand up and say the truth.

I personally do not believe in existence of the truth. Desire to judge is a sin. Do not forget court goddess is blind.

Aleks, it is a good topic to discuss at CTF. I would like to hear your explanation.

[Rolf]

If you experts dont tell what you know about the truth THEN you betray our whole community because there wont be a court where we could get the truth. So, please stand up and say the truth.

I personally do not believe in existence of the truth. Desire to judge is a sin. Do not forget court goddess is blind.

If one speaks of truth or (the) truth in relation to an expert and his knowledge, truth means that he gives his judgement as expert. Perhaps he doesnt know the "whole" truth but what he says is the truth. Otherwise he wouldnt be an expert.

Corbit doesnt speak out the truth because he doesnt condemn Strelka and author. Strelka or Toga dont "give" anything new to the community, except what Fruit and above all Rybka already gave. Plus the confessions of the author of Strelka. Nothing but provocations. Donchev made very well clear what stealing means in that context.

Make no mistake. I have a weakness for Russians. But the hiding of his real identity speaks the verdict about Strelka's author - for me and my experience. I put Strelka into CB and then found out that I could also support the original Rybka author, it was a question of honor in the end and this is what all these smart programmers ignore. Smartness isnt everything. But Strelka isnt as good as Rybka. So, where is the sense?

Thanks for this short exchange and till next time.

[Alexander Schmidt]

I never said it's 5-10%

because of that "5-10% of Fruit

OK, I give up... You will not get it...

Alex

[Alexander Schmidt]

Thanks, Alex, it is clear now. If you read over the interview (I don't have it on file myself), did it not contain that 5-10% part about Fruit? Somehow I feel it must have had that part - I am (was?) quite good at numbers.

Maybe Vas told it somewhere else. But he never said he took code, he just took ideas. The same said SMK once, but if I remember right he said also that Fruit ideas are not useful in Shredder.

A little quote from SMK:

20.06.2005, Stefan Meyer Kahlen

Q: After first results the new Fruit 2.1 could be very close to the best commercial chess engines, even to Shredder 9. What is more scaring for you, Fabien Letouzey himself or the GPL behind Fruit?

A: I have to admit that I have not yet downloaded and tested Fruit 2.1. From what I have heard so far it seems to be quite strong so I will certainly take a look at it. I have already had a short email conversation with Fabien. He seems to be a nice guy so there should be no reason to be afraid
Also I see no problems with the GPL license behind Fruit. If others will be able to find some ideas in Fruit there is probably also some inspiration for me. As far as I know taking ideas from GPL licensed software is ok. The best motivation for me to further improve Shredder is, if someone is overtaking Shredder at the top of the rating lists or will beat Shredder badly in a match. So my personal judgement about Fruit is not negative but positive. The only negative point is that the clone problem in tournaments might be bigger now, but there should be a solution for this.


Alex