Win or draw?

Jack Lad · Post by **Jack Lad** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:26 pm

[d] 5k2/8/pppppppp/8/PPPPPPPP/8/8/5K2 w - - 0 1

Is this position a forced win for white or can black hold the draw?

Or perhaps you think that there is no way to tell at the current time.

George Tsavdaris · Post by **George Tsavdaris** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:08 pm

Jack Lad wrote:[d] 5k2/8/pppppppp/8/PPPPPPPP/8/8/5K2 w - - 0 1

Is this position a forced win for white or can black hold the draw?

Or perhaps you think that there is no way to tell at the current time.

Draw of course....

bob · Post by **bob** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:41 pm

I'm not so sure. White is way ahead with respect to tempo.

George Tsavdaris · Post by **George Tsavdaris** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:56 pm

bob wrote:I'm not so sure. White is way ahead with respect to tempo.

What do you suggest?

What move i mean. Ke2, Ke1, etc are met with the symmetrical Ke8 etc....

Uri Blass · Post by **Uri Blass** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:26 pm

White can push a pawn and it is not obvious that there is no win.

1.a5 b5? 2.d5 wins for white.

Black can play 1...bxa5 that is better but it is not clear that it is a draw.

Uri

bob · Post by **bob** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:56 am

George Tsavdaris wrote:
bob wrote:I'm not so sure. White is way ahead with respect to tempo.
What do you suggest?
What move i mean. Ke2, Ke1, etc are met with the symmetrical Ke8 etc....

Take two positions...

white pawns on a2, b2, c2, white king on h1, black pawns on a7, b7 and c7, black king on h8. Trivial draw no matter who moves first.

Now change it up.

white pawns on a5, b5 and c5, white king on h1, black pawns on a7, b7 and c7, black king on h8. Trivial win for white. The only difference is the tempo advantage of the advanced pawns, where white can sac a pawn but create a queen quickly enough to stop black's extra pawn and win the game.

That was my basis for saying "I am not so sure it is a draw". It might be, but then with all those extra pawn moves white has already made, white might have tricks that could be problematic for black because of the speed advantage.

Jack Lad · Post by **Jack Lad** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:11 am

George Tsavdaris wrote:
Jack Lad wrote:[d] 5k2/8/pppppppp/8/PPPPPPPP/8/8/5K2 w - - 0 1

Is this position a forced win for white or can black hold the draw?

Or perhaps you think that there is no way to tell at the current time.
Draw of course....

Sorry George - it is a win for white.

George Tsavdaris · Post by **George Tsavdaris** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:58 am

Uri Blass wrote:White can push a pawn and it is not obvious that there is no win.

1.a5 b5? 2.d5 wins for white.

Black can play 1...bxa5 that is better but it is not clear that it is a draw.

Yes i see it now that white wins with 1.d5!

Shredder 10 had problems recognizing the win in one specific position so that made me believe there is not more than a draw.....

Uri Blass · Post by **Uri Blass** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:48 pm

George Tsavdaris wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:White can push a pawn and it is not obvious that there is no win.

1.a5 b5? 2.d5 wins for white.

Black can play 1...bxa5 that is better but it is not clear that it is a draw.
Yes i see it now that white wins with 1.d5!

Shredder 10 had problems recognizing the win in one specific position so that made me believe there is not more than a draw.....

What is the win after 1.d5 exd5?
I do not claim that white does not win but I do not see the win after some minutes of analysis.

Uri

Edmund · Post by **Edmund** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:46 pm

[D]7k/8/pppppppp/8/PPPPPPPP/8/8/7K w - - 0 1

For this a5/d5 wins, but I think the other position is draw, because the black king can protect its pawns

[D]6k1/8/pppppppp/8/PPPPPPPP/8/8/6K1 w - - 0 1

d5 is also a win for white probably

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