To Jeroen and interested minds, re. Tiger node count

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Jeroen
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Re: To Jeroen and interested minds, re. Tiger node count

Post by Jeroen » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:08 am

Dear Christophe,

If Tiger would have showed the right node count you simply could give the answer 'yes'. You do not do this, so people can think for themselves what this means.

It would be rather funny when a person A complains to a person B about something, when actually person A does something similar, isn't it!? That is the only point I want to make here.

Kind regards, Jeroen






Which you refuse to answer (and I know why :-)).[/quote]



I do not refuse and I have made a clear proposal.

Now you can of course drag this on by pretending that you are acting out of curiosity as a simple customer when you are in reality part of the Rybka team, after being part of the Tiger and the Rebel teams.

Tell me, which of these sentences is false:
- you are a part of the Rybka team
- you are using internal knowledge of Chess Tiger in order to ask a question that you think is embarassing
- you would like people to stop asking questions about the node count of Rybka
- you would like to divert the attention from the way Rybka obfuscates its node count to other programs' node count

Maybe sending a member of the team to pose as a simple customer and ask a "candid" question sounded as a good idea?

No really, if Rybka's node count is nobody's business, then fine, the Rybka team should say it once and for all. Unfortunately we already know how it obfuscates the node count, but I still believe that telling us that it's not our business would be the best defense. Keeping mute about it does not work anymore. Sending a member of the team to divert the attention is even worse.



// Christophe[/quote]

Jeroen
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Re: To Jeroen and interested minds, re. Tiger node count

Post by Jeroen » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:12 am

Sigh, some people are really being stubborn. 'It is not the words of the message that count, but how the receiver of the message understands these words'. I found them very offensive. Period. If Chris says this was not intended, period.

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Graham Banks
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Re: To Jeroen and interested minds, re. Tiger node count

Post by Graham Banks » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:14 am

Henrik Dinesen wrote:
Jeroen wrote:A collaborator in the Dutch language means f.e. Dutch people who joined the Nazis during world war II and betrayed their own people. So maybe now you understand why I am upset?
For the record, the meaning is more or less the same in Danish. And when used in English, it usually seems to follow that line too.

If anyone called me a collaborator, I'd like it to be a friend who's just joking.
Hi Jeroen,

in English (and this is an English language forum), when you say you're working in collaboration with somebody, it means you're working together as a team. However, it could be in either a positive or negative way.
Hope this helps,

Regards, Graham.
gbanksnz at gmail.com

Jeroen
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Re: To Jeroen and interested minds, re. Tiger node count

Post by Jeroen » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:17 am

Hi Graham,

Thanks. In Dutch it is very negative and offensive, though.

Kind regards, Jeroen

Golem

Re: To Jeroen and interested minds, re. Tiger node count

Post by Golem » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:23 am

Jeroen wrote:Sigh, some people are really being stubborn. 'It is not the words of the message that count, but how the receiver of the message understands these words'. I found them very offensive. Period. If Chris says this was not intended, period.
Everyone can interpret the words of a message like he feels it but don't accuse a moderator to "hate" you based on your own interpretation of his words (and when it's not the case obviously...). Are we disccussing chess or is it going to become a flame war ?

chrisw

Re: To Jeroen and interested minds, re. Tiger node count

Post by chrisw » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:32 am

Jeroen wrote:Hi Graham,

Thanks. In Dutch it is very negative and offensive, though.

Kind regards, Jeroen
Are you reading the word "collaborator" as a Dutch word? Because you should read it as an English word (this is an international forum using English) and translate it into Dutch with a dictionary.

The Googled on-line dictionary does this

Collaborator -> medewerker, which means roughly 'employee' in Dutch

Collaborate -> samenwerken, which means 'cooperate' in Dutch.

On an international forum where English is the main language you need to work out the meaning in English, not pronounce the word in your own language and fabricate a false meaning from the sound or the spelling in your own language. If you don't try to understand what the English actually means then you will jump to false conclusions which may cause you to make unsound and silly accusations.

Jeroen
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Re: To Jeroen and interested minds, re. Tiger node count

Post by Jeroen » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:39 am

http://www.mijnwoordenboek.nl/vertalen.php


collaborator(the ~) als in `traitor to one's country`:
landverrader (de ~ (m))
collaborator(the ~) als in `quisling`:
landverrader (de ~ (m))
collaborator(the ~) als in `collaborator`:
collaborateur (de ~ (m)), landverrader (de ~ (m))

When you are in Holland again, use the word a few times addressing Dutch people and see what happens.

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tiger
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Re: To Jeroen and interested minds, re. Tiger node count

Post by tiger » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:49 am

Jeroen wrote:Dear Christophe,

If Tiger would have showed the right node count you simply could give the answer 'yes'. You do not do this, so people can think for themselves what this means.

It would be rather funny when a person A complains to a person B about something, when actually person A does something similar, isn't it!? That is the only point I want to make here.

Kind regards, Jeroen


I know it's the "only" point you wanted to make, but unfortunately it goes much farther than you, or your team, have anticipated.

You have been part of the Tiger team, and as such you have gathered private information about the Chess Tiger engine. No problem here, it was part of your job.

Now you are part of the Rybka team. Fine.

However your position is such that the least you could do is to stay away from any argument that could arise between these teams or members of these teams.

Instead, you start to interfere, which is already unwise, but you do so in the most unwise way by using internal knowledge you have gathered from the team you were previously working with.

How you do it is even more questionnable: you present yourself as a simple customer asking a candid question.

And now you think you are going to get away with it? That you just have to say "aha you see there was something you hide" and have the last word this way?

It just brings back once again the question: what's with the Rybka node count that is so embarassing that one member of the team has to dig internal knowledge gathered in another team to try (in vain) to embarrass the guy asking the question?

What's so problematic with the Rybka node count that an offer to exchange explanations (I tell you how I count you tell me how you count) is not even answered?



// Christophe
Last edited by tiger on Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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tiger
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Re: To Jeroen and interested minds, re. Tiger node count

Post by tiger » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:54 am

Jeroen wrote:http://www.mijnwoordenboek.nl/vertalen.php


collaborator(the ~) als in `traitor to one's country`:
landverrader (de ~ (m))
collaborator(the ~) als in `quisling`:
landverrader (de ~ (m))
collaborator(the ~) als in `collaborator`:
collaborateur (de ~ (m)), landverrader (de ~ (m))

When you are in Holland again, use the word a few times addressing Dutch people and see what happens.


Are you looking for a way to escape the topic we were discussing?

I think it's clear that ChrisW has not intention to say anything negative. So shouldn't this be over now?



// Christophe

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tiger
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Re: To Jeroen and interested minds, re. Tiger node count

Post by tiger » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:55 am

Golem wrote:
Jeroen wrote:Sigh, some people are really being stubborn. 'It is not the words of the message that count, but how the receiver of the message understands these words'. I found them very offensive. Period. If Chris says this was not intended, period.
Everyone can interpret the words of a message like he feels it but don't accuse a moderator to "hate" you based on your own interpretation of his words (and when it's not the case obviously...). Are we disccussing chess or is it going to become a flame war ?


Jeroen is an excellent chess player. Maybe he is preparing a draw? :)



// Christophe

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