To Jeroen and interested minds, re. Tiger node count

[bob]

Huh? You must be kidding. Calling me a 'collaborator' (which is a very negative word in the Dutch language) is pretty offensive, so I am filing an official complaint here. I don't accept such language, especially not from a moderator.

So basically other programmers can question anything about Rybka and not vice versa. OK, you made that perfectly clear.

In that case I wish you a lot of success with the 'impartial CCC where everybody can ask what he wants'. Maybe you should change its name into 'The Anti Rybka Forum'.

While I didn't read the post in question, "collaborator" is hardly an insulting word. It is what I call someone that works on something with me. IE we "collaborate" to improve something... hardly an insult, just based on the word... More like "friend helping me" or something similar. For example, in the thread on thesting on the programming forum, I would call Karl a collaborator and hope he would not be insulted...

Bob, allow me please if I disagree.

Here, I simply don't give a rat's ass whether you agree or not. Every time I submit a grant proposal to the NSF here, I have to include a sheet that lists "recent collaborators". This is used so that they will not review my proposals since it is assumed that we have a "friendly" relationship since we have worked together (AKA collaboration) on other projects.

There is no mistake here, because this is an English forum, and the English dictionary bears the weight of determining the meaning for each word we write here. Occasionally there might be confusion, as in the case of Jeroen. But it is a _mistake_ on his part, not an insult on Chris's part, and it should be quickly resolved and we should move on.

Disagree all you want, but there is no room for different views here. It is black/white, not grey...

JN and CT once were partners in Tiger buisiness and competition. Believe me Bob, CT had well learned this specific Dutch historical problem connected with the Nazi occupation. How ugly the term is for Dutch, all could see when I used it a bit careless in a debate with Ed longtime ago. He went almost mad at me imediately.

We have here a typical hypocrisy problem. Someone does something intentionally to push the buttons of another one whose national weaknesses here and NOT at all personal ones he well knows and the many experts here, also two mods, also CW, and now you explain Jeroen that this wasnt insultive at all, as if they wanted to humiliate him another time! It's really ugly.

It's utmost impolite if you intentionally leave out all psychology of such a topic and then inform a perfectly innocent here Dutch that he has made his own problem now because he simply didnt get the absolute innocence of an expression!

In real it's completely different. CT made an intentional insult. After he made it against Vas he now made it against Jeroen and out of his view all this is justified and this is the "crime".

In truth his whole campaign against Vas was already the "crime". And because JN now dared to show CT his own practice, CT is now running out of control. Bob, he already announced it, "It's not over yet" he told Jeroen. But you and others still think that this is a misunderstanding?

After targeting Vas and Jeroen, the next big topic will be ChessBase for sure. It will start a campaign against the true kingdom of evil and the bloodsucking, when in truth there is nothing but a repetition of a well known trend, namely thatr all best engines once in a while had a date with CB and appeared under the Fritz GUI or their own. In the meantime you can download and buy some dozen programs on the CB webpage, among those are Junior, Comet and Crafty. And now also Rybka. And formerly Tiger and also Sjeng. You name it. But there will be a defamatory campaign against CB and Rybka, because their connection. And it all started this summer with CT's campaign against Vas and his KN count.

What I want to say to you in special is this, Bob. You are the guard for state of the art in computerchess at least who is still active on the net. You care for real KN count. Fine. But then if you are so active, then please give your clear commentary, that CB or Vas with Rybka are no criminals who have violated the old charme of good old ACM laws. We have 2008 and some people want to make a living out of the pretty small business niche that computercxhess has to offer. It were you who should explain and not me, that some plays are still allowed and that this here is not university. I mean when it comes to the idiotic Elo numbers and other stats you also show tolerance for such games although you know that science wise it's nonsense.

Therefore I would like that you as our number one top reference wouldnt tell Jeroen to shut up with his being hurt, and that you would tell CT that he should better stop his comedy smear act against Vas. That he should focus on Tiger as Theron, because what has Theron to do with Rybka suddenly??? I wished you would make such clarifications.

Tip to hat regards, Bob. Nice weekend for you.

[mclane]

Chris W uses the word 'collaborator' and here is a link where you can see what this means:

http://www.mijnwoordenboek.nl/vertalen.php

Collaborator: 'a traitor to one's country'.

So a mod uses this word addressing me. I'd like official excuses for this.

jeroen. maybe this is new to you, but words often have several meanings.
the most common usage of collaborator is the one i told you.

[ernest]

Bob, can't you just IGNORE some people...

[Rolf]

Huh? You must be kidding. Calling me a 'collaborator' (which is a very negative word in the Dutch language) is pretty offensive, so I am filing an official complaint here. I don't accept such language, especially not from a moderator.

So basically other programmers can question anything about Rybka and not vice versa. OK, you made that perfectly clear.

In that case I wish you a lot of success with the 'impartial CCC where everybody can ask what he wants'. Maybe you should change its name into 'The Anti Rybka Forum'.

While I didn't read the post in question, "collaborator" is hardly an insulting word. It is what I call someone that works on something with me. IE we "collaborate" to improve something... hardly an insult, just based on the word... More like "friend helping me" or something similar. For example, in the thread on thesting on the programming forum, I would call Karl a collaborator and hope he would not be insulted...

Bob, allow me please if I disagree.

Here, I simply don't give a rat's ass whether you agree or not. Every time I submit a grant proposal to the NSF here, I have to include a sheet that lists "recent collaborators". This is used so that they will not review my proposals since it is assumed that we have a "friendly" relationship since we have worked together (AKA collaboration) on other projects.

There is no mistake here, because this is an English forum, and the English dictionary bears the weight of determining the meaning for each word we write here. Occasionally there might be confusion, as in the case of Jeroen. But it is a _mistake_ on his part, not an insult on Chris's part, and it should be quickly resolved and we should move on.

Disagree all you want, but there is no room for different views here. It is black/white, not grey...

JN and CT once were partners in Tiger buisiness and competition. Believe me Bob, CT had well learned this specific Dutch historical problem connected with the Nazi occupation. How ugly the term is for Dutch, all could see when I used it a bit careless in a debate with Ed longtime ago. He went almost mad at me imediately.

We have here a typical hypocrisy problem. Someone does something intentionally to push the buttons of another one whose national weaknesses here and NOT at all personal ones he well knows and the many experts here, also two mods, also CW, and now you explain Jeroen that this wasnt insultive at all, as if they wanted to humiliate him another time! It's really ugly.

It's utmost impolite if you intentionally leave out all psychology of such a topic and then inform a perfectly innocent here Dutch that he has made his own problem now because he simply didnt get the absolute innocence of an expression!

In real it's completely different. CT made an intentional insult. After he made it against Vas he now made it against Jeroen and out of his view all this is justified and this is the "crime".

In truth his whole campaign against Vas was already the "crime". And because JN now dared to show CT his own practice, CT is now running out of control. Bob, he already announced it, "It's not over yet" he told Jeroen. But you and others still think that this is a misunderstanding?

After targeting Vas and Jeroen, the next big topic will be ChessBase for sure. It will start a campaign against the true kingdom of evil and the bloodsucking, when in truth there is nothing but a repetition of a well known trend, namely thatr all best engines once in a while had a date with CB and appeared under the Fritz GUI or their own. In the meantime you can download and buy some dozen programs on the CB webpage, among those are Junior, Comet and Crafty. And now also Rybka. And formerly Tiger and also Sjeng. You name it. But there will be a defamatory campaign against CB and Rybka, because their connection. And it all started this summer with CT's campaign against Vas and his KN count.

What I want to say to you in special is this, Bob. You are the guard for state of the art in computerchess at least who is still active on the net. You care for real KN count. Fine. But then if you are so active, then please give your clear commentary, that CB or Vas with Rybka are no criminals who have violated the old charme of good old ACM laws. We have 2008 and some people want to make a living out of the pretty small business niche that computercxhess has to offer. It were you who should explain and not me, that some plays are still allowed and that this here is not university. I mean when it comes to the idiotic Elo numbers and other stats you also show tolerance for such games although you know that science wise it's nonsense.

Therefore I would like that you as our number one top reference wouldnt tell Jeroen to shut up with his being hurt, and that you would tell CT that he should better stop his comedy smear act against Vas. That he should focus on Tiger as Theron, because what has Theron to do with Rybka suddenly??? I wished you would make such clarifications.

Tip to hat regards, Bob. Nice weekend for you.

I repeat what you are trying to avoid to read and comment: the psychology and the context is decisive. You are right with your papers but here in this forum we have a flame war and a campaign by CT against Vas and now JN. And it's clear that CT is out of control IMO because a secret of his own Tiger has been mentioned with a rhetoric question. Again, THeron belongs to Tiger and if he wants to stop work on Tiger he shouldnt defamate Rybka. Because Rybka is Rajlich & Kaufman.
All such effort to make a smear act from commercial to commercial is against the charter, see above the first commandment of CCC.

[Tony]

Chris W uses the word 'collaborator' and here is a link where you can see what this means:

http://www.mijnwoordenboek.nl/vertalen.php

Collaborator: 'a traitor to one's country'.

So a mod uses this word addressing me. I'd like official excuses for this.

jeroen. maybe this is new to you, but words often have several meanings.
the most common usage of collaborator is the one i told you.

Words have meanings, but words also create feelings.

One of the (negative) meanings of the word collaborator resembles the dutch word "collaborateur".

For a dutchman that is not aware of the other meanings of collaborator, it is a logical (first) translation. Jeroen reacted on the feeling the word created, the same way most dutch would.

Even I had to think twice to remember the general meaning.

For the rest Jeroen is wrong though

Cheers,

Tony

[mclane]

rolf we made this forum for you. but not that you continue the way you do, but for NOT doing it. you should better respect this.

[Rolf]

rolf we made this forum for you. but not that you continue the way you do, but for NOT doing it. you should better respect this.

if ChrisW would share your wishes to censor a legitimate position against this Rybka bashing of Vas I will consider.

[Rolf]

Chris W uses the word 'collaborator' and here is a link where you can see what this means:

http://www.mijnwoordenboek.nl/vertalen.php

Collaborator: 'a traitor to one's country'.

So a mod uses this word addressing me. I'd like official excuses for this.

jeroen. maybe this is new to you, but words often have several meanings.
the most common usage of collaborator is the one i told you.

Words have meanings, but words also create feelings.

One of the (negative) meanings of the word collaborator resembles the dutch word "collaborateur".

For a dutchman that is not aware of the other meanings of collaborator, it is a logical (first) translation. Jeroen reacted on the feeling the word created, the same way most dutch would.

Even I had to think twice to remember the general meaning.

For the rest Jeroen is wrong though

Cheers,

Tony

This is true but for your judgement you are wrong because CT knew well the tender Dutch point and he pushed the button intentiously. Years ago I took CT himself for Dutch because he was always with Ed and the Dutch. So this is why we must also consider the psychology of the underlying insult. In French one would also take completely different words for working together. But not the collaborer which is also in France a sort of bad reminding of a bad past under the Nazis. So, it's 100% sure that CT didnt use the term unintentionally in a neutral manner. The word is basically meaning the ugly thing called traitor of his own people's honor perhapsw even to get rich by that strategy. That is why it's also so ugly for the Dutch even today. And that was intentional. Believe me.

[Zach Wegner]

This is true but for your judgement you are wrong because CT knew well the tender Dutch point and he pushed the button intentiously. Years ago I took CT himself for Dutch because he was always with Ed and the Dutch. So this is why we must also consider the psychology of the underlying insult. In French one would also take completely different words for working together. But not the collaborer which is also in France a sort of bad reminding of a bad past under the Nazis. So, it's 100% sure that CT didnt use the term unintentionally in a neutral manner. The word is basically meaning the ugly thing called traitor of his own people's honor perhapsw even to get rich by that strategy. That is why it's also so ugly for the Dutch even today. And that was intentional. Believe me.

It was Chris Wittington that said it!!

[Rolf]

Chris W uses the word 'collaborator' and here is a link where you can see what this means:

http://www.mijnwoordenboek.nl/vertalen.php

Collaborator: 'a traitor to one's country'.

So a mod uses this word addressing me. I'd like official excuses for this.

Was it the Mad Hatter who said to Alice, "words mean whatever I want them to mean"? You are like the Mad Hatter here, Jeroen.

I used 'collaborator' as meaning somebody who worked with another person. As you worked with Christophe on Tiger.

English is full of words with meaning dependent on context. The context was your work with Christophe. The context was not Dutch experience with the German occupiers in World War 2. and it is quite deceitful of you to suggest so.

thats correct but the context in truth is this:

CT and JN worked together and in the many meetings in Leiden CT has learned about the Dutch as such and that e.g. The past is important. So CT learned that Dutch is to be insulted by the use , the allegation, the topic as such, of collaboration. Using it now after JN has asked the decisive question of the Tiger output, NB he was Tiger operator not just Tiger book author, CT uses the ominous word. In THAT context it's an insult for JN as a Dutch, Chris. You cant argue, well here is CCC, and JN is no longer a Dutch with all his feelings. Remember the old days? When it was a big news from Holland that they were researching those cases where Dutch as collaborators enriched themselves and now should pay back. I found the topic interesting, Ed was not amused to say the least and Ed could also never have been involvede personally. Now this with JN, the context is so clear. And why filtering the whole psychology out? Usually you also defend people on the base of their emotions. What I support normally. Here Jeroen was intentinally insulted but it was very tricky from CT side.

If you want, I can well confess. Often it's really a completely personally unrelated news that can make a person angry if he's confronted with something that is only relevant for his nationality. And in our mutual war times I was happy to publish the absolutely correct, non-insultive news. I thjink if I then could have written something about a fact that Ed also collaborated (!) with say ChessBase <ed would have had a stroke or such. Believe me, Chris, written by a French addressed to a Dutch this word is insultive on this historical channel of messaging. This is absolutely sure.