A Common Sense Proposal to all Vas & Rybka Doubters

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Dann Corbit, Harvey Williamson

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
Post Reply
User avatar
geots
Posts: 4790
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:42 pm

A Common Sense Proposal to all Vas & Rybka Doubters

Post by geots » Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:47 am

Instead of using this forum to pitch your arguments, a forum you know Vas never hardly reads much less will appear on. I have a suggestion to Christophe, Zach, Bob Hyatt and any others. Vas will meet you anytime- any place- anywhere- ONE ON ONE. Then lets see how things turn. Zach has to his credit approached Vas on the Rybka forum with, i think, 5 points- and after a few sentences from Vas has already had to concede one of them. So Bob- here is the deal- meet Vas one on one, and let us see, concerning the Rybka issue, who has any credibility left after all is said and done- and who will leave with his head hung in shame. I already know. Vas is waiting, Bob- the ball is in your court. Very easy to be critical when you are playing to deaf ears. Let us see how you fare one on one against him. Personally, i cant wait. Tho i know it will never happen- not now- not ever.

Dirt
Posts: 2851
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:01 pm
Location: Irvine, CA, USA

Re: A Common Sense Proposal to all Vas & Rybka Doubters

Post by Dirt » Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:58 am

geots wrote:Bob
He's not really a primary player in this at this point. It should be left to Zach and the others who are gathering evidence to present it.

User avatar
geots
Posts: 4790
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:42 pm

Re: A Common Sense Proposal to all Vas & Rybka Doubters

Post by geots » Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:14 am

Dirt wrote:
geots wrote:Bob
He's not really a primary player in this at this point. It should be left to Zach and the others who are gathering evidence to present it.

After the stuff i read that he said today, i was shocked. I want to see what he says after a one on one with Vas- sort of a Rybka- Crafty matchup, so to speak.

bob
Posts: 20923
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: A Common Sense Proposal to all Vas & Rybka Doubters

Post by bob » Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:23 am

geots wrote:Instead of using this forum to pitch your arguments, a forum you know Vas never hardly reads much less will appear on. I have a suggestion to Christophe, Zach, Bob Hyatt and any others. Vas will meet you anytime- any place- anywhere- ONE ON ONE. Then lets see how things turn. Zach has to his credit approached Vas on the Rybka forum with, i think, 5 points- and after a few sentences from Vas has already had to concede one of them. So Bob- here is the deal- meet Vas one on one, and let us see, concerning the Rybka issue, who has any credibility left after all is said and done- and who will leave with his head hung in shame. I already know. Vas is waiting, Bob- the ball is in your court. Very easy to be critical when you are playing to deaf ears. Let us see how you fare one on one against him. Personally, i cant wait. Tho i know it will never happen- not now- not ever.
I am not sure what I am supposed to meet him one on one about? I am not doing source or binary comparisons, and have not been interested in investing that kind of time. My only contribution has been to argue against all the "you can have hundreds of lines identical through pure coincidence. That's garbage. If he can address the issues about the duplicate code that has been shown, suits me just fine. Just don't try to explain it away as "in 40,000 lines, having common blocks of 200 lines is quite expected. It is not.

bob
Posts: 20923
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: A Common Sense Proposal to all Vas & Rybka Doubters

Post by bob » Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:25 am

geots wrote:
Dirt wrote:
geots wrote:Bob
He's not really a primary player in this at this point. It should be left to Zach and the others who are gathering evidence to present it.

After the stuff i read that he said today, i was shocked. I want to see what he says after a one on one with Vas- sort of a Rybka- Crafty matchup, so to speak.
What have I said that is shocking? That you will not "accidentally" produce a couple of hundred lines of identical code here, a couple of hundred lines there? That is all I have stated from the beginning. _IF_ there is duplicate code to any significant extent (not single lines, but blocks of code) then there is no way it is an "accident". If that is shocking, not much I can say. Anybody that deals with large numbers of programming assignments on a regular basis will say the same.

User avatar
geots
Posts: 4790
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:42 pm

Re: A Common Sense Proposal to all Vas & Rybka Doubters

Post by geots » Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:18 am

bob wrote:
geots wrote:
Dirt wrote:
geots wrote:Bob
He's not really a primary player in this at this point. It should be left to Zach and the others who are gathering evidence to present it.

After the stuff i read that he said today, i was shocked. I want to see what he says after a one on one with Vas- sort of a Rybka- Crafty matchup, so to speak.
What have I said that is shocking? That you will not "accidentally" produce a couple of hundred lines of identical code here, a couple of hundred lines there? That is all I have stated from the beginning. _IF_ there is duplicate code to any significant extent (not single lines, but blocks of code) then there is no way it is an "accident". If that is shocking, not much I can say. Anybody that deals with large numbers of programming assignments on a regular basis will say the same.


"This post was just so much nonsense that it is hard to believe a _real_ programmer would write such garbage. That makes him look worse than had he remained silent, in fact."


The above was attributed to Vas by you. Word_for_word. Thats what did it for me. Quite simply- it is time for you to put up or shut up! Dont waste your time explaining the above to me. Go one on one with Vas- make that quote to him, and lets see who shuts who up.

User avatar
Zach Wegner
Posts: 1922
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:51 pm
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: A Common Sense Proposal to all Vas & Rybka Doubters

Post by Zach Wegner » Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:57 am

George,

If nobody bothers to give your post a serious response, please don't misinterpret that.

It is, as you say in your language, "bullshit".

User avatar
geots
Posts: 4790
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:42 pm

Re: A Common Sense Proposal to all Vas & Rybka Doubters

Post by geots » Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:04 am

Zach Wegner wrote:George,

If nobody bothers to give your post a serious response, please don't misinterpret that.

It is, as you say in your language, "bullshit".

I refuse to be critical of a 20 year old. You will grow up in time.

Best,

Uri Blass
Posts: 8948
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: A Common Sense Proposal to all Vas & Rybka Doubters

Post by Uri Blass » Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:07 am

bob wrote:
geots wrote:
Dirt wrote:
geots wrote:Bob
He's not really a primary player in this at this point. It should be left to Zach and the others who are gathering evidence to present it.

After the stuff i read that he said today, i was shocked. I want to see what he says after a one on one with Vas- sort of a Rybka- Crafty matchup, so to speak.
What have I said that is shocking? That you will not "accidentally" produce a couple of hundred lines of identical code here, a couple of hundred lines there? That is all I have stated from the beginning. _IF_ there is duplicate code to any significant extent (not single lines, but blocks of code) then there is no way it is an "accident". If that is shocking, not much I can say. Anybody that deals with large numbers of programming assignments on a regular basis will say the same.
This is no accident but also proves nothing.
No accident because programmers do not start from scratch but start from known ideas that they read.

If the task is to write chess programs when people start from no idea that they read then you can expect more difference but if people learn about bitboards and learn tricks to write faster firstone function then you cannot
blame them for not being original and writing a slower code.

firstone is only one example so it does not seem obvious to me that few hundrends of lines of equivalent code is a proof for using copy and paste
without looking at the code(I need to look at the lines to decide).

Here is an example about different bitboard programs that is not the case of fruit and rybka because fruit is not a bitboard program.

Based on looking at the code of strelka
one bitboard dictate many bitboards so if one bitboard is the same many bitboards are going to be the same.
If you use A1=0,B1=1,...H1=7,A2=8,...H8=63 you can expect arrays of bitboard of the squares that the king control to be the same and you have 64 numbers(squares that the king control at A1 squares that the king control at B1,....)

Same is for squares that the knight control and squares that the pawns control and for bitboards that tell you information about blocking squares and continue in this way.
All these constants can be easily hundreds of lines of code so you get hundrends of lines that are basically the same.

You can have different functions to generate them but
the programmer may simply use constant array and in this case the constant array is the same.

Uri

User avatar
geots
Posts: 4790
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:42 pm

Re: A Common Sense Proposal to all Vas & Rybka Doubters

Post by geots » Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:20 am

Uri Blass wrote:
bob wrote:
geots wrote:
Dirt wrote:
geots wrote:Bob
He's not really a primary player in this at this point. It should be left to Zach and the others who are gathering evidence to present it.

After the stuff i read that he said today, i was shocked. I want to see what he says after a one on one with Vas- sort of a Rybka- Crafty matchup, so to speak.
What have I said that is shocking? That you will not "accidentally" produce a couple of hundred lines of identical code here, a couple of hundred lines there? That is all I have stated from the beginning. _IF_ there is duplicate code to any significant extent (not single lines, but blocks of code) then there is no way it is an "accident". If that is shocking, not much I can say. Anybody that deals with large numbers of programming assignments on a regular basis will say the same.
This is no accident but also proves nothing.
No accident because programmers do not start from scratch but start from known ideas that they read.

If the task is to write chess programs when people start from no idea that they read then you can expect more difference but if people learn about bitboards and learn tricks to write faster firstone function then you cannot
blame them for not being original and writing a slower code.

firstone is only one example so it does not seem obvious to me that few hundrends of lines of equivalent code is a proof for using copy and paste
without looking at the code(I need to look at the lines to decide).

Here is an example about different bitboard programs that is not the case of fruit and rybka because fruit is not a bitboard program.

Based on looking at the code of strelka
one bitboard dictate many bitboards so if one bitboard is the same many bitboards are going to be the same.
If you use A1=0,B1=1,...H1=7,A2=8,...H8=63 you can expect arrays of bitboard of the squares that the king control to be the same and you have 64 numbers(squares that the king control at A1 squares that the king control at B1,....)

Same is for squares that the knight control and squares that the pawns control and for bitboards that tell you information about blocking squares and continue in this way.
All these constants can be easily hundreds of lines of code so you get hundrends of lines that are basically the same.

You can have different functions to generate them but
the programmer may simply use constant array and in this case the constant array is the same.

Uri

Thank God for people like Uri, Dann and Chris Whittington who are looking at this subject with no bias and no agendas.

Best, Uri
Last edited by geots on Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply