regarding the latest milov rybka 3 match Mr kaufman estimated it played at 3050 level. I would like to know your opinion on this.
also could you comment on this post by uri
thank you
http://64.68.157.89/forum/viewtopic.php ... t&start=20
All the evidence of the results suggest that computer programs are significantly stronger than humans and even programs that are significantly weaker than rybka on slower hardware could get draws with kramnik and kasparov but for some reason some people insist that human are still equal or better.
I do not understand why they do it.
question to Prof Hyatt regarding milov vs rybka
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Re: question to Prof Hyatt regarding milov vs rybka
I think the very concept of "played at a 3050 level" is ridiculous. First, who can say what that level looks like? second, can an IM recognize play at a level that is 600 points above his own level?duncan wrote:regarding the latest milov rybka 3 match Mr kaufman estimated it played at 3050 level. I would like to know your opinion on this.
also could you comment on this post by uri
thank you
http://64.68.157.89/forum/viewtopic.php ... t&start=20
All the evidence of the results suggest that computer programs are significantly stronger than humans and even programs that are significantly weaker than rybka on slower hardware could get draws with kramnik and kasparov but for some reason some people insist that human are still equal or better.
I do not understand why they do it.
I don't have any opinion about the game or the level of play, Larry would look much wiser if he kept away from the hyperbole himself...
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Re: question to Prof Hyatt regarding milov vs rybka
if you know some ones elo score you can predict percentage score against different opponents.
based on tests he did with rybka he found the exchange handicap worth about 400 elo points. milov elo is about 3700, so if the match would have been a 4 4 tie then its elo level would have been 3100 as it was 4.5 3.5 then he estimated 3050.
so let's say that 3050 elo means you can score 85% against kramink/anand then assuming this match is a representative sample of rybks's playing strength, and assuming the exchange handicap worth about 400 elo points (at the 2700 level [as he said it is worth more the higher the elo]) he would expect rybka to score 85% against kramink/anand .
that is what he seemed to be saying rather than he was in a position to judge chess skill.
I would like to hear your comment on this and what uri said.
based on tests he did with rybka he found the exchange handicap worth about 400 elo points. milov elo is about 3700, so if the match would have been a 4 4 tie then its elo level would have been 3100 as it was 4.5 3.5 then he estimated 3050.
so let's say that 3050 elo means you can score 85% against kramink/anand then assuming this match is a representative sample of rybks's playing strength, and assuming the exchange handicap worth about 400 elo points (at the 2700 level [as he said it is worth more the higher the elo]) he would expect rybka to score 85% against kramink/anand .
that is what he seemed to be saying rather than he was in a position to judge chess skill.
I would like to hear your comment on this and what uri said.
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Re: question to Prof Hyatt regarding milov vs rybka
Agreed,even worse....these stupid odd methods make it much harder to measure whatever Elo difference you want to estimate.....bob wrote:I think the very concept of "played at a 3050 level" is ridiculous. First, who can say what that level looks like? second, can an IM recognize play at a level that is 600 points above his own level?duncan wrote:regarding the latest milov rybka 3 match Mr kaufman estimated it played at 3050 level. I would like to know your opinion on this.
also could you comment on this post by uri
thank you
http://64.68.157.89/forum/viewtopic.php ... t&start=20
All the evidence of the results suggest that computer programs are significantly stronger than humans and even programs that are significantly weaker than rybka on slower hardware could get draws with kramnik and kasparov but for some reason some people insist that human are still equal or better.
I do not understand why they do it.
I don't have any opinion about the game or the level of play, Larry would look much wiser if he kept away from the hyperbole himself...
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….
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Re: question to Prof Hyatt regarding milov vs rybka
My comment is this: what says that the Elo scale is linear at the upper or lower fringes of the range? What says that a pawn is worth 400? This is a _lot_ of speculation. I'd bet that between 1000-level players, a pawn means very little, while at the super-GM level, it is almost winning.duncan wrote:if you know some ones elo score you can predict percentage score against different opponents.
based on tests he did with rybka he found the exchange handicap worth about 400 elo points. milov elo is about 3700, so if the match would have been a 4 4 tie then its elo level would have been 3100 as it was 4.5 3.5 then he estimated 3050.
so let's say that 3050 elo means you can score 85% against kramink/anand then assuming this match is a representative sample of rybks's playing strength, and assuming the exchange handicap worth about 400 elo points (at the 2700 level [as he said it is worth more the higher the elo]) he would expect rybka to score 85% against kramink/anand .
that is what he seemed to be saying rather than he was in a position to judge chess skill.
I would like to hear your comment on this and what uri said.
I'm not into this speculation stuff, and I don't consider it particularly interesting to play these handicapped matches. If people want to play 'em, and watch 'em, more power to 'em. I'm not among 'em however.
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Re: question to Prof Hyatt regarding milov vs rybka
My deep respect for a words of wisdom....bob wrote:My comment is this: what says that the Elo scale is linear at the upper or lower fringes of the range? What says that a pawn is worth 400? This is a _lot_ of speculation. I'd bet that between 1000-level players, a pawn means very little, while at the super-GM level, it is almost winning.duncan wrote:if you know some ones elo score you can predict percentage score against different opponents.
based on tests he did with rybka he found the exchange handicap worth about 400 elo points. milov elo is about 3700, so if the match would have been a 4 4 tie then its elo level would have been 3100 as it was 4.5 3.5 then he estimated 3050.
so let's say that 3050 elo means you can score 85% against kramink/anand then assuming this match is a representative sample of rybks's playing strength, and assuming the exchange handicap worth about 400 elo points (at the 2700 level [as he said it is worth more the higher the elo]) he would expect rybka to score 85% against kramink/anand .
that is what he seemed to be saying rather than he was in a position to judge chess skill.
I would like to hear your comment on this and what uri said.
I'm not into this speculation stuff, and I don't consider it particularly interesting to play these handicapped matches. If people want to play 'em, and watch 'em, more power to 'em. I'm not among 'em however.
Odd matches are monkey circus regards,
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….
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Re: question to Prof Hyatt regarding milov vs rybka
regarding regular computer-human games, he said Hydra, earned a 3000 rating against humans in fourteen games.
is that correct ?
is that correct ?
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Re: question to Prof Hyatt regarding milov vs rybka
What a crap!bob wrote:My comment is this: what says that the Elo scale is linear at the upper or lower fringes of the range? What says that a pawn is worth 400? This is a _lot_ of speculation. I'd bet that between 1000-level players, a pawn means very little, while at the super-GM level, it is almost winning.duncan wrote:if you know some ones elo score you can predict percentage score against different opponents.
based on tests he did with rybka he found the exchange handicap worth about 400 elo points. milov elo is about 3700, so if the match would have been a 4 4 tie then its elo level would have been 3100 as it was 4.5 3.5 then he estimated 3050.
so let's say that 3050 elo means you can score 85% against kramink/anand then assuming this match is a representative sample of rybks's playing strength, and assuming the exchange handicap worth about 400 elo points (at the 2700 level [as he said it is worth more the higher the elo]) he would expect rybka to score 85% against kramink/anand .
that is what he seemed to be saying rather than he was in a position to judge chess skill.
I would like to hear your comment on this and what uri said.
I'm not into this speculation stuff, and I don't consider it particularly interesting to play these handicapped matches. If people want to play 'em, and watch 'em, more power to 'em. I'm not among 'em however.
In Golf or Go handicaps are part of the game and in chess it's a known tradition. Already Morphy played it and sometimes he then lost such a game.
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Re: question to Prof Hyatt regarding milov vs rybka
Rolf wrote:
Rolf wrote:
Rolf wrote:
1. It is absurd to quantify a pawn as being worth 400 elo points.
2. Dr Hyatt himself does not find handicap games interesting but accepts that others may do.
Both are very different to chess, and the handicaps apply to amateurs and not to professional golfers or Dan go players. Indeed in go the opposite to giving handicaps has occurred in serious go with adjustments to komi being made to attempt to negate the advantage of the first move in all master games, whether the players are 1 Dan or 9 Dan.In Golf or Go handicaps are part of the game...
Rolf wrote:
"Already"? Morphy was near the end of the period of odds games and not the beginning. Its heyday was in the 18th century in games played for money. Almost all Philidor's games were at odds but only 15% of Morphy's, and nowadays it is time handicaps that have replaced material handicaps. By the first half of the twentieth century the very occasional odds games by GMs were exhibition games. The Kasparov-Chapman match (for money) in 2001 was a very rare example of a modern GM playing an odds game....and in chess it's a known tradition. Already Morphy played it and sometimes he then lost such a game.
Rolf wrote:
Isn't there a saying about a fox smells its own hole? Dr Hyatt made just two points - both eminently sensible:What a crap!
1. It is absurd to quantify a pawn as being worth 400 elo points.
2. Dr Hyatt himself does not find handicap games interesting but accepts that others may do.
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Re: question to Prof Hyatt regarding milov vs rybka
Thanks Derek,we needed a fresh meat in the depate as Rolf's one stinks from miles away alreadydj wrote:Rolf wrote:Both are very different to chess, and the handicaps apply to amateurs and not to professional golfers or Dan go players. Indeed in go the opposite to giving handicaps has occurred in serious go with adjustments to komi being made to attempt to negate the advantage of the first move in all master games, whether the players are 1 Dan or 9 Dan.In Golf or Go handicaps are part of the game...
Rolf wrote:"Already"? Morphy was near the end of the period of odds games and not the beginning. Its heyday was in the 18th century in games played for money. Almost all Philidor's games were at odds but only 15% of Morphy's, and nowadays it is time handicaps that have replaced material handicaps. By the first half of the twentieth century the very occasional odds games by GMs were exhibition games. The Kasparov-Chapman match (for money) in 2001 was a very rare example of a modern GM playing an odds game....and in chess it's a known tradition. Already Morphy played it and sometimes he then lost such a game.
Rolf wrote:Isn't there a saying about a fox smells its own hole? Dr Hyatt made just two points - both eminently sensible:What a crap!
1. It is absurd to quantify a pawn as being worth 400 elo points.
2. Dr Hyatt himself does not find handicap games interesting but accepts that others may do.
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….