A compromise idea for the WCCC hardware limit

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Mike S.
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A compromise idea for the WCCC hardware limit

Post by Mike S. »

Unlike during the 1980s/90s, when there were two tournaments separated from each other, maybe world champion titles in two categories could be awarded in one event, alltogether.

:arrow: (1.) The absolute Computer Chess World Champion
(everything unlimited)

:arrow: (2.) The Uniform Platform Computer Chess World Champion
(consumer-orientated hardware limit; other limits like for opening books are debateable IMO but I won't stress that.)

Some will say, what do we need (2) for, or I am only interested in (1). Others will say, (1) is meaningless for me, or with the equipment I can afford I have no chance in (1). So, this proposal is only for people who can accept, and want to handle compromises. A compromise can provide the chance to include all parties of interest, unlike when an extreme position wins and others are excluded (for whatever reason or in whatever role).

I think it can be done if up to two entries are allowed, per participant. But in that case, one entry would have to play for (2.) with limited hardware. In case of only one entry, he should have the free choice of category. Maybe a long swiss tournament could be done in a way that whenever possible, the category of the opponent is switched, round by round (like the switch of colors).

The idea of uniform platform raises the problem - which maybe also is a chance though - to find a sponsor for the required number of identical computers, on site.

Alternatively, the particpants would need to bring in "very similar" hardware for category (2). But I think that is only the second best choice, because even with adjustments, they can probably not be standardized in the sense of uniform platform. - Or the requirement for / definition of "consumer-orientated hardware limit" is regulated in a way that it allows a certain bandwidth. Limiting the number of cores only, seems very general.

Also, for now - but probably not for the near future - I think 4 cores would be a better limit, because as explained by Jens, there are huge cost and performance differences within an 8 core limit, still. We have had similar thoughts here, because the same topic was being discussed at the Rybka forum some time ago too, where I had suggested u.p. with quads.

As for the verification of how many cores are used: This just cannot be a problem in a place where computer experts gather together. For example, Microsoft's Process Explorer doesn't even need to be installed, so the tournament director could have it on an USB stick. So nobody can hack it to display a faked CPU load (in case if lovers of conspiracy theories had such concerns :mrgreen:). There are also free CPU identification tools, like CPU-Z.

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysi ... 96653.aspx

(I am almost sure that such ready-to-run tools also exist for Linux and Mac, but I don't know it.)

Anyway, I am aware myself that my proposal is not very realistic, but it should show that a compromise is possible, at least as something "theoretically imaginable"...
Regards, Mike
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Thomas Mayer
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Re: A compromise idea for the WCCC hardware limit

Post by Thomas Mayer »

Hi Mike,

this all is very nice, but you must face the reality: There are too less entries anyway, so no chance to form two classes. In my opinion there should be no hardware limit, I WANT to see big computers, clusters etc. at such tournaments. That simply makes a difference.

By the way, in your system: If Hydra plays on a quadcore, how should it be handled ? Or if someone uses the graphics adapter as part of his engine, how many cores are that ? IF there is a hardware limit the organizer should provide the hardware as well - but of course nobody wants that because it kills clever hardware solutions.

Without programmers the WCCC will die anyway and with such limitations you kick the programmers away.

Greets, Thomas
Dann Corbit
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Re: A compromise idea for the WCCC hardware limit

Post by Dann Corbit »

They did this before.

They called it the WMCCC and the WCCC.
WMCCC == World Microcomputer Computer Chess Championship
WCCC == World Computer Chess Championship

From the feeback on Remi's site, it seems that the programmers want WCCC and are not terribly interested in WMCCC.
bob
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Re: A compromise idea for the WCCC hardware limit

Post by bob »

Mike S. wrote:Unlike during the 1980s/90s, when there were two tournaments separated from each other, maybe world champion titles in two categories could be awarded in one event, alltogether.

:arrow: (1.) The absolute Computer Chess World Champion
(everything unlimited)

:arrow: (2.) The Uniform Platform Computer Chess World Champion
(consumer-orientated hardware limit; other limits like for opening books are debateable IMO but I won't stress that.)
You _do_ realize that we used to do this, after the WCCC and the WMCCC events were merged? Starting in 1974 we had the WCCC period, anything goes. Then when the microcomputer programs came along, the ICCA organized a WMCCC event (annually where the WCCC was every 3 years) and which only allowed microcomputers. These two events were merged into one somewhere in the early 90's. Prior to that the WMCCC was a fiasco because commercial programs used exotic (and often secret) hardware, sometimes with more than one CPU without telling anyone, etc. After the merger, we had two titles. Absolute and Microcomputer champs.

By popular demand (of the programmers) the distinction was dropped, once and for all, and good riddance as well, leading to today's WCCC title.

Why go back in time to something _none_ of the programmers liked? This event is for the _programmers_. Not for the spectators. Not for the users. Not for the players. For the _programmers_. Always has been. Trying to make it into something else is counter-productive to its original intent, which was to foster computer chess development around the world.


Some will say, what do we need (2) for, or I am only interested in (1). Others will say, (1) is meaningless for me, or with the equipment I can afford I have no chance in (1). So, this proposal is only for people who can accept, and want to handle compromises. A compromise can provide the chance to include all parties of interest, unlike when an extreme position wins and others are excluded (for whatever reason or in whatever role).

I think it can be done if up to two entries are allowed, per participant. But in that case, one entry would have to play for (2.) with limited hardware. In case of only one entry, he should have the free choice of category. Maybe a long swiss tournament could be done in a way that whenever possible, the category of the opponent is switched, round by round (like the switch of colors).
I personally do not want to have to enter two versions of my program. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, and it was deemed ineffective, and a waste of time. That's how we ended up with one event, which again is what the _programmers_ want/wanted...


The idea of uniform platform raises the problem - which maybe also is a chance though - to find a sponsor for the required number of identical computers, on site.

Alternatively, the particpants would need to bring in "very similar" hardware for category (2). But I think that is only the second best choice, because even with adjustments, they can probably not be standardized in the sense of uniform platform. - Or the requirement for / definition of "consumer-orientated hardware limit" is regulated in a way that it allows a certain bandwidth. Limiting the number of cores only, seems very general.
And it is unenforcable. We even had cryo computers in the 1997 WCCC event in Paris, cryo-cooled dec alpha boxes overclocked significantly. Who could buy or afford those? How can you tell how fast my machine is running? I can hack linux to report a speed of whatever I want. You are going to allow linux and now restrict everyone to windoze I assume. Or maybe not. And further impede competition...


Also, for now - but probably not for the near future - I think 4 cores would be a better limit, because as explained by Jens, there are huge cost and performance differences within an 8 core limit, still. We have had similar thoughts here, because the same topic was being discussed at the Rybka forum some time ago too, where I had suggested u.p. with quads.
[

In 2-3 years, 8 cores will be the norm in _every_ computer. This is not forward-thinking, it is backward-thinking.


As for the verification of how many cores are used: This just cannot be a problem in a place where computer experts gather together. For example, Microsoft's Process Explorer doesn't even need to be installed, so the tournament director could have it on an USB stick. So nobody can hack it to display a faked CPU load (in case if lovers of conspiracy theories had such concerns :mrgreen:). There are also free CPU identification tools, like CPU-Z.

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysi ... 96653.aspx

(I am almost sure that such ready-to-run tools also exist for Linux and Mac, but I don't know it.)

Anyway, I am aware myself that my proposal is not very realistic, but it should show that a compromise is possible, at least as something "theoretically imaginable"...
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George Tsavdaris
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Re: A compromise idea for the WCCC hardware limit

Post by George Tsavdaris »

Thomas Mayer wrote: By the way, in your system: If Hydra plays on a quadcore, how should it be handled ?
No need to wonder. The answer is simple. In his system Hydra has no place. It should not participate in the WCCC. He said that clearly in another post.
WCCC is no place for Hydra with the big hardware.
I wonder if he actually believes what he writes. :roll:
Without programmers the WCCC will die anyway and with such limitations you kick the programmers away.
Yes but the spectators will be happy after all with their fair conditions for the tournament. It doesn't matter if tournament will not take place as long as conditions are fair. :D
After his son's birth they've asked him:
"Is it a boy or girl?"
YES! He replied.....
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George Tsavdaris
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Re: A compromise idea for the WCCC hardware limit

Post by George Tsavdaris »

bob wrote: By popular demand (of the programmers) the distinction was dropped, once and for all, and good riddance as well, leading to today's WCCC title.

Why go back in time to something _none_ of the programmers liked? This event is for the _programmers_. Not for the spectators. Not for the users. Not for the players. For the _programmers_.
You've said that around 20 times in the last days.
Zero effect.
I guess until May after another 200 times people would start realizing it. :D

Without programmers there is no WCCC. There is no talk about hardware limitations, there is no computer Chess.
So instead of trying to attract programmers to the WCCC with favoring rule changes, they applied rules that made most of them (that remained) to strongly disagree with them.
They have to be very ingenious indeed. :D
After his son's birth they've asked him:
"Is it a boy or girl?"
YES! He replied.....
bob
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Re: A compromise idea for the WCCC hardware limit

Post by bob »

George Tsavdaris wrote:
bob wrote: By popular demand (of the programmers) the distinction was dropped, once and for all, and good riddance as well, leading to today's WCCC title.

Why go back in time to something _none_ of the programmers liked? This event is for the _programmers_. Not for the spectators. Not for the users. Not for the players. For the _programmers_.
You've said that around 20 times in the last days.
Zero effect.
I guess until May after another 200 times people would start realizing it. :D

Without programmers there is no WCCC. There is no talk about hardware limitations, there is no computer Chess.
So instead of trying to attract programmers to the WCCC with favoring rule changes, they applied rules that made most of them (that remained) to strongly disagree with them.
They have to be very ingenious indeed. :D
I thought GCP really hit the nail on the head with his analysis. Of course the problem is the hardware. :)
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Mike S.
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Re: A compromise idea for the WCCC hardware limit

Post by Mike S. »

George Tsavdaris wrote: No need to wonder. The answer is simple. In his system Hydra has no place. It should not participate in the WCCC. He said that clearly in another post.
Please try to be fair. I NEVER said that, I said it was a wise decision not to participate. That is a HUGE difference, and actually I would have appreciated if Hydra had participated. Also, if you read my initial posting you should notice that any system can participate as the idea includes an unlimited category, and also noone would be forced two make two entries.

Of course, a system with FPGAs is not a consumer-orientated hardware, so Hydra would go for the absolute title. I mean, we don't seriously consider that it would go for a uniform platform title do we?!

Utilizing graphic card hardware is a different and interesting question, and if "standard" graphics hardware is used - that means, something you can buy from the computer shop on the next corner - than it could be called consumer-like hardware and I would tend to include it into that category. But only if that computer has max. two such graphic cards, not eight :mrgreen: Otherwise, it could participate in the other category as well. I see no problem with that.
Regards, Mike
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Harvey Williamson
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Re: A compromise idea for the WCCC hardware limit

Post by Harvey Williamson »

bob wrote:This event is for the _programmers_. Not for the spectators. Not for the users. Not for the players. For the _programmers_.
I wonder if the sponsors know this?
Is the Soccer World Cup just for the players?
Or as formula 1 is often quoted here is it just for the car makers?
etc etc etc....
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Mike S.
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Re: A compromise idea for the WCCC hardware limit

Post by Mike S. »

In the other thread are my arguments which point into the other direction and anyone can read them if he wants, or ignore them. Anyway, Levy seems to see that in a similar way, as he does NOT talk about programmers only but also addresses other "interested parties" (although I do not know which groups he has in mind, exactly).

I want that computer chess gets, has and keeps publicity, at least in the general chess world. A WCCC with regulations as the time and circumstances require it (to continue at all) is important for that.

As a long time fan I have tried to contribute some thoughts on this, and that is all I can do. I don't feel like wanting to repeat myself, so I quit here. - Thanks for fairness if you quote me; please no "interpretations", use copy & paste please :mrgreen:
Regards, Mike