Trusted testers wanted

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Volker Annuss
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:15 am

Trusted testers wanted

Post by Volker Annuss » Tue May 05, 2009 6:31 pm

Glaurung 2.2 NNT is another glaurung clone (pardon, derived work).

It is based on Glaurung 2.2 by Tord Romstad and modified by Volker Annuss without looking at any Glaurung modification.

I don't want to find my source code in clones, so the only way to recieve a copy from me is to promise not to give a copy to anyone but Tord Romstad.

Glaurung 2.2 NNT is distributed as source code only. Of course you recieve all the rights the GPL V3 (the original Glaurung license) gives you. This includes the right to modify it and give copies away. But remember, you recieved it by promising not to make use of this right and the GPL does not force you to do so.

Changes
- Timing using Neural Networks
- Simplification (Bugfix?) in LMR
- Bugfix in move ordering

Expect it to be 5 or 10 ELO stronger than Glaurung 2.2.

If you want to get a copy, please send an e-mail to glaurungclone [ät] nnuss DOT de.

I will send copies to trusted testers only.
If you don't get a copy, no reason will be given. This does not necessary mean, that I don't trust you.

Greetings
Volker

bob
Posts: 20923
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: Trusted testers wanted

Post by bob » Tue May 05, 2009 7:01 pm

Volker Annuss wrote:Glaurung 2.2 NNT is another glaurung clone (pardon, derived work).

It is based on Glaurung 2.2 by Tord Romstad and modified by Volker Annuss without looking at any Glaurung modification.

I don't want to find my source code in clones, so the only way to recieve a copy from me is to promise not to give a copy to anyone but Tord Romstad.

Glaurung 2.2 NNT is distributed as source code only. Of course you recieve all the rights the GPL V3 (the original Glaurung license) gives you. This includes the right to modify it and give copies away. But remember, you recieved it by promising not to make use of this right and the GPL does not force you to do so.

Changes
- Timing using Neural Networks
- Simplification (Bugfix?) in LMR
- Bugfix in move ordering

Expect it to be 5 or 10 ELO stronger than Glaurung 2.2.

If you want to get a copy, please send an e-mail to glaurungclone [ät] nnuss DOT de.

I will send copies to trusted testers only.
If you don't get a copy, no reason will be given. This does not necessary mean, that I don't trust you.

Greetings
Volker
Sorry, but you simply can not do this. A GPL program is GPL. Only the author can change that. You can not release a modified version and restrict it to be something less than GPL. You should read the GPL to see why.

Marc Lacrosse
Posts: 511
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:05 pm
Contact:

Re: Trusted testers wanted

Post by Marc Lacrosse » Tue May 05, 2009 7:06 pm

Volker Annuss wrote: I don't want to find my source code in clones, so the only way to recieve a copy from me is to promise not to give a copy to anyone but Tord Romstad.
Sorry Volker, but what you ask for is exactly the opposite of the most fundamental point of the GPL that Tord decided to apply for glaurung.
You simply cannot ask for such a promise.
_This_ is a breach of the GPL. The reason why you were allowed to have a look at Tord's code and base your modifications on it is precisely that _you_ "promised" not to add any restriction (be it a soft "promise") to the general use of your added code if you were to publish it.
Volker Annuss wrote:Glaurung 2.2 NNT is distributed as source code only. Of course you recieve all the rights the GPL V3 (the original Glaurung license) gives you. This includes the right to modify it and give copies away. But remember, you recieved it by promising not to make use of this right and the GPL does not force you to do so.
You are infringing the GPL when you ask for such a promise.
Either you keep your code for yourself or you publish it and you are not allowed to ask for any restriction on its use as your code itself is based on a GPL source.

Marc

User avatar
Eelco de Groot
Posts: 4279
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:40 am
Location: Groningen

Re: Trusted testers wanted

Post by Eelco de Groot » Tue May 05, 2009 8:13 pm

bob wrote:
Volker Annuss wrote:Glaurung 2.2 NNT is another glaurung clone (pardon, derived work).

It is based on Glaurung 2.2 by Tord Romstad and modified by Volker Annuss without looking at any Glaurung modification.

I don't want to find my source code in clones, so the only way to recieve a copy from me is to promise not to give a copy to anyone but Tord Romstad.

Glaurung 2.2 NNT is distributed as source code only. Of course you recieve all the rights the GPL V3 (the original Glaurung license) gives you. This includes the right to modify it and give copies away. But remember, you recieved it by promising not to make use of this right and the GPL does not force you to do so.

Changes
- Timing using Neural Networks
- Simplification (Bugfix?) in LMR
- Bugfix in move ordering

Expect it to be 5 or 10 ELO stronger than Glaurung 2.2.

If you want to get a copy, please send an e-mail to glaurungclone [ät] nnuss DOT de.

I will send copies to trusted testers only.
If you don't get a copy, no reason will be given. This does not necessary mean, that I don't trust you.

Greetings
Volker
Sorry, but you simply can not do this. A GPL program is GPL. Only the author can change that. You can not release a modified version and restrict it to be something less than GPL. You should read the GPL to see why.
Robert what you say is true but I don't think this is what Volker wants to do. At this point Volker is only asking for testers, for a private version. So as far as I can see this is allowed by the GPL, as long as Volker and no tester releases it or otherwise make any derived work from Glaurung available without following all the GPL conditions? A private version could be tested by the CCRL and CEGT, but just not released unless following all the conditions of the GPL. Any free release or commercial version would have to include the source and licence, but I don't see a reason for Volker at this point to also provide this source code to the testers now. Should any of the testers make an executable public that they received from Volker, they would be in breach of of the GPL.
Glaurung 2.2 NNT is distributed as source code only. Of course you recieve all the rights the GPL V3 (the original Glaurung license) gives you. This includes the right to modify it and give copies away. But remember, you recieved it by promising not to make use of this right and the GPL does not force you to do so.
This part of Volkers'post I think won't hold up in court, the GPL overrides any such promise because it goes against the spirit of the GPL. If that is also what Robert and Marc are saying I agree with them.

Regards, Eelco
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan

bob
Posts: 20923
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: Trusted testers wanted

Post by bob » Tue May 05, 2009 8:29 pm

Eelco de Groot wrote:
bob wrote:
Volker Annuss wrote:Glaurung 2.2 NNT is another glaurung clone (pardon, derived work).

It is based on Glaurung 2.2 by Tord Romstad and modified by Volker Annuss without looking at any Glaurung modification.

I don't want to find my source code in clones, so the only way to recieve a copy from me is to promise not to give a copy to anyone but Tord Romstad.

Glaurung 2.2 NNT is distributed as source code only. Of course you recieve all the rights the GPL V3 (the original Glaurung license) gives you. This includes the right to modify it and give copies away. But remember, you recieved it by promising not to make use of this right and the GPL does not force you to do so.

Changes
- Timing using Neural Networks
- Simplification (Bugfix?) in LMR
- Bugfix in move ordering

Expect it to be 5 or 10 ELO stronger than Glaurung 2.2.

If you want to get a copy, please send an e-mail to glaurungclone [ät] nnuss DOT de.

I will send copies to trusted testers only.
If you don't get a copy, no reason will be given. This does not necessary mean, that I don't trust you.

Greetings
Volker
Sorry, but you simply can not do this. A GPL program is GPL. Only the author can change that. You can not release a modified version and restrict it to be something less than GPL. You should read the GPL to see why.
Robert what you say is true but I don't think this is what Volker wants to do. At this point Volker is only asking for testers, for a private version. So as far as I can see this is allowed by the GPL, as long as Volker and no tester releases it or otherwise make any derived work from Glaurung available without following all the GPL conditions? A private version could be tested by the CCRL and CEGT, but just not released unless following all the conditions of the GPL. Any free release or commercial version would have to include the source and licence, but I don't see a reason for Volker at this point to also provide this source code to the testers now. Should any of the testers make an executable public that they received from Volker, they would be in breach of of the GPL.
According to the GPL, _any_ distribution of a program, even done privately, must conform to the GPL. You can take a GPL program and modify it all you want, but you can not give it to a single soul unless you comply with the GPL, which means if you give it to one, you give it to all, and you can't hide the source or not release it.

The GPL really is a pretty straightforward and legally binding document that has to be followed. The main issue here is that he can not take a GPL program and then modify it and release it only to selected people. That is clearly not allowed.

Glaurung 2.2 NNT is distributed as source code only. Of course you recieve all the rights the GPL V3 (the original Glaurung license) gives you. This includes the right to modify it and give copies away. But remember, you recieved it by promising not to make use of this right and the GPL does not force you to do so.
This part of Volkers'post I think won't hold up in court, the GPL overrides any such promise because it goes against the spirit of the GPL. If that is also what Robert and Marc are saying I agree with them.

Regards, Eelco

Sean Evans
Posts: 1777
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:58 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Trusted testers wanted

Post by Sean Evans » Tue May 05, 2009 8:50 pm


Ryan Benitez
Posts: 719
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:21 am
Location: Portland Oregon

Re: Trusted testers wanted

Post by Ryan Benitez » Tue May 05, 2009 9:06 pm

bob wrote:
Eelco de Groot wrote:
bob wrote:
Volker Annuss wrote:Glaurung 2.2 NNT is another glaurung clone (pardon, derived work).

It is based on Glaurung 2.2 by Tord Romstad and modified by Volker Annuss without looking at any Glaurung modification.

I don't want to find my source code in clones, so the only way to recieve a copy from me is to promise not to give a copy to anyone but Tord Romstad.

Glaurung 2.2 NNT is distributed as source code only. Of course you recieve all the rights the GPL V3 (the original Glaurung license) gives you. This includes the right to modify it and give copies away. But remember, you recieved it by promising not to make use of this right and the GPL does not force you to do so.

Changes
- Timing using Neural Networks
- Simplification (Bugfix?) in LMR
- Bugfix in move ordering

Expect it to be 5 or 10 ELO stronger than Glaurung 2.2.

If you want to get a copy, please send an e-mail to glaurungclone [ät] nnuss DOT de.

I will send copies to trusted testers only.
If you don't get a copy, no reason will be given. This does not necessary mean, that I don't trust you.

Greetings
Volker
Sorry, but you simply can not do this. A GPL program is GPL. Only the author can change that. You can not release a modified version and restrict it to be something less than GPL. You should read the GPL to see why.
Robert what you say is true but I don't think this is what Volker wants to do. At this point Volker is only asking for testers, for a private version. So as far as I can see this is allowed by the GPL, as long as Volker and no tester releases it or otherwise make any derived work from Glaurung available without following all the GPL conditions? A private version could be tested by the CCRL and CEGT, but just not released unless following all the conditions of the GPL. Any free release or commercial version would have to include the source and licence, but I don't see a reason for Volker at this point to also provide this source code to the testers now. Should any of the testers make an executable public that they received from Volker, they would be in breach of of the GPL.
According to the GPL, _any_ distribution of a program, even done privately, must conform to the GPL. You can take a GPL program and modify it all you want, but you can not give it to a single soul unless you comply with the GPL, which means if you give it to one, you give it to all, and you can't hide the source or not release it.

The GPL really is a pretty straightforward and legally binding document that has to be followed. The main issue here is that he can not take a GPL program and then modify it and release it only to selected people. That is clearly not allowed.

Glaurung 2.2 NNT is distributed as source code only. Of course you recieve all the rights the GPL V3 (the original Glaurung license) gives you. This includes the right to modify it and give copies away. But remember, you recieved it by promising not to make use of this right and the GPL does not force you to do so.
This part of Volkers'post I think won't hold up in court, the GPL overrides any such promise because it goes against the spirit of the GPL. If that is also what Robert and Marc are saying I agree with them.

Regards, Eelco
It sounds to me like he is sending source code with the engine. As far as I know the GPL does not force you must distribute to all. It would be ridiculous to demand every Toga based engine release to everyone every test beta that is sent out. It is possible that I am missing something here but I do not see the GPL violation.

Eizenhammer

Re: Trusted testers wanted

Post by Eizenhammer » Tue May 05, 2009 9:21 pm

I don't understand. If Tord gets your change and it is an improvement, it will be public. Then all your (strange) conditioning is about nothing. But of course I miss the point?!

User avatar
Dr.Wael Deeb
Posts: 9773
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:44 pm
Location: Amman,Jordan

Re: Trusted testers wanted

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Tue May 05, 2009 9:21 pm

Ryan Benitez wrote:
bob wrote:
Eelco de Groot wrote:
bob wrote:
Volker Annuss wrote:Glaurung 2.2 NNT is another glaurung clone (pardon, derived work).

It is based on Glaurung 2.2 by Tord Romstad and modified by Volker Annuss without looking at any Glaurung modification.

I don't want to find my source code in clones, so the only way to recieve a copy from me is to promise not to give a copy to anyone but Tord Romstad.

Glaurung 2.2 NNT is distributed as source code only. Of course you recieve all the rights the GPL V3 (the original Glaurung license) gives you. This includes the right to modify it and give copies away. But remember, you recieved it by promising not to make use of this right and the GPL does not force you to do so.

Changes
- Timing using Neural Networks
- Simplification (Bugfix?) in LMR
- Bugfix in move ordering

Expect it to be 5 or 10 ELO stronger than Glaurung 2.2.

If you want to get a copy, please send an e-mail to glaurungclone [ät] nnuss DOT de.

I will send copies to trusted testers only.
If you don't get a copy, no reason will be given. This does not necessary mean, that I don't trust you.

Greetings
Volker
Sorry, but you simply can not do this. A GPL program is GPL. Only the author can change that. You can not release a modified version and restrict it to be something less than GPL. You should read the GPL to see why.
Robert what you say is true but I don't think this is what Volker wants to do. At this point Volker is only asking for testers, for a private version. So as far as I can see this is allowed by the GPL, as long as Volker and no tester releases it or otherwise make any derived work from Glaurung available without following all the GPL conditions? A private version could be tested by the CCRL and CEGT, but just not released unless following all the conditions of the GPL. Any free release or commercial version would have to include the source and licence, but I don't see a reason for Volker at this point to also provide this source code to the testers now. Should any of the testers make an executable public that they received from Volker, they would be in breach of of the GPL.
According to the GPL, _any_ distribution of a program, even done privately, must conform to the GPL. You can take a GPL program and modify it all you want, but you can not give it to a single soul unless you comply with the GPL, which means if you give it to one, you give it to all, and you can't hide the source or not release it.

The GPL really is a pretty straightforward and legally binding document that has to be followed. The main issue here is that he can not take a GPL program and then modify it and release it only to selected people. That is clearly not allowed.

Glaurung 2.2 NNT is distributed as source code only. Of course you recieve all the rights the GPL V3 (the original Glaurung license) gives you. This includes the right to modify it and give copies away. But remember, you recieved it by promising not to make use of this right and the GPL does not force you to do so.
This part of Volkers'post I think won't hold up in court, the GPL overrides any such promise because it goes against the spirit of the GPL. If that is also what Robert and Marc are saying I agree with them.

Regards, Eelco
It sounds to me like he is sending source code with the engine. As far as I know the GPL does not force you must distribute to all. It would be ridiculous to demand every Toga based engine release to everyone every test beta that is sent out. It is possible that I am missing something here but I do not see the GPL violation.
I am in no means a GPL specialist but I think that you're absolutely right regarding the Toga's case....there are tons of private versions of Toga cerculating the computer chess community and I don't think that this is a violation to the GPL....
I am testing now a private DeepLearningToga which I recieved with the source code....Am I violating the GPL....don't think so....
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

Tord Romstad
Posts: 1808
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:19 pm
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Trusted testers wanted

Post by Tord Romstad » Tue May 05, 2009 9:27 pm

bob wrote:Sorry, but you simply can not do this. A GPL program is GPL. Only the author can change that. You can not release a modified version and restrict it to be something less than GPL. You should read the GPL to see why.
I am not a lawyer, but my opinion is that Volker is clearly allowed to do what he describes. He states clearly that the program he sends to testers will be GPL licensed. At the same time, he wants the testers to give him a personal promise that they will not distribute the program. From a legal point of view, the testers are completely free to distribute the program, and do anything else allowed by the GPL. Distributing the program would not be breaking the law, but just breaking a promise. It would not make them criminals, but merely assholes.

That's why Volker emphasizes that he is only interested in testers he knows he can trust. He knows they will not be legally bound by their promise, so he needs someone trustable.

Tord

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