Norm Schmidt .....and the computer chess

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Alexander Schmidt
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Re: For Clones we dont need private police but Good logic

Post by Alexander Schmidt » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:56 pm

Rolf wrote:Could you please tell me how something could be a clone if it's terribly stronger than the original?
If you buy a Volkswagen, give it another colour, an engine with 500hp, new tires, dark windows. It looks completely different, is much faster. But its still a volkswagen and not a Tueschen Motors.

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Le Fou numerique
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Re: For Clones we dont need private police but Good logic

Post by Le Fou numerique » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:08 pm

Alexander Schmidt wrote:
If you buy a Volkswagen, give it another colour, an engine with 500hp, new tires, dark windows. It looks completely different, is much faster. But its still a volkswagen and not a Tueschen Motors.
Yeah, when I was young (many years ago) we saw Käffer with Porsche 9.11 motors on the Autobahns but there were no Porsches but always Käffer. And these guys don't want drive Porsches.

In these times I drive 2CV, and later also a Käffer 1303 (50PS!!!!)

Regards,
Patrick

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Rolf
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Re: For Clones we dont need private police but Good logic

Post by Rolf » Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:03 am

Alexander Schmidt wrote:
Rolf wrote:Could you please tell me how something could be a clone if it's terribly stronger than the original?
If you buy a Volkswagen, give it another colour, an engine with 500hp, new tires, dark windows. It looks completely different, is much faster. But its still a volkswagen and not a Tueschen Motors.
With all respect, also because I know that you are an expert here like Olivier too, but dont you two and many others understand what you are saying here?

The comparison sucks because in cars there are many different strengths and cars are built for many different financial purses. But in computerchess, please try to get that in all its consequences, please, there is no such thing, besides the known tools and features, like what you called here the 500hp engine, that makes it faster. ALL top programs do have already ALL these known speed and power features and tricks. But there is one leader of the pack, that is still much stronger than all others. Now a clone would be if someone built a RYBKA that is even stronger than RYBKA itself, but nobody came with such a monster yet. Why? Because nobody did understand yet how the normal RYBKA is getting his advantage over all others because if someone of the commercials would understand it he would already have tried it for his own "car". But there is no such thing as a stronger than RYBKA itself clone.

So that is the reason why I say, if someone could create such a stronger "clone" than RYBKA herself, THEN that should be tolerated because this someone would have invented somthing very powerful and intelligent. And that shouldnt be forbidden. But now the other way round. All what is a clone and weaker than the best, that is to be seen as a poor copy without own genial additions. And that should be forbidden. Also with all these tries to do harm to the RYBKA programmer. But this could be opposed by also legal remedies.

Summary:

A clone which isnt stronger than its prior pattern is just a copy and therefore forbidden, but a stronger "clone" has something new by force that outweighs the mere copy by far and that shouldnt be forbidden with the also substantial copy since the personality of the new entity is mainly the new inventions and not the already "known" pattern. To fare in the contrary way it would prevent progress of new inventions because alone the writing a new program from scratch takes almost two years as Bob explained. But computerchess sports isnt about a lame period survival of the best inventors until their own invention then is already surpassed by others. Two years is a lifetime for a genius. You could also force him to go into the army or you could throw him in jail or you expect him to study some university stuff. All this is crazy if you want to see what young talents are able to do in computerchess programming.

Look at Bob, whose genius is eaten up by his classes business. But ok, he might make a living that is much more comfortable than that of those who remain students for decades and who travel to Indonesia and China, only to live the life that cant get spectators other than on the internet. That is all lost time for our talents. My advice to such talents: sell your inventions for the highest price that is possible and then create your future as a scientist, but dont remain in the sphere living for chess. You only live once and it's not worth it.

Anyway, I wish you all all the best. Honestly. Rolf
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz

Christopher Conkie
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Re: For Clones we dont need private police but Good logic

Post by Christopher Conkie » Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:40 am

Rolf wrote:Now a clone would be if someone built a RYBKA that is even stronger than RYBKA itself, but nobody came with such a monster yet.
Wrong. Such a thing exists.

But there is no such thing as a stronger than RYBKA itself clone.
Wrong again sigh. Such a thing exists.
So that is the reason why I say, if someone could create such a stronger "clone" than RYBKA herself, THEN that should be tolerated because this someone would have invented somthing very powerful and intelligent. And that shouldnt be forbidden.
Wrong yet again...... More Rolf rubbish.
But now the other way round.
There is no other way round. You are just wrong and you are spouting your usual hot air.
Summary:
Will it be short?
A clone which isnt stronger than its prior pattern is just a copy and therefore forbidden, but a stronger "clone" has something new by force that outweighs the mere copy by far and that shouldnt be forbidden with the also substantial copy since the personality of the new entity is mainly the new inventions and not the already "known" pattern.
So if we rename Mein Kampf to Rolf's Kampf that makes the contents of the book a better read? Give it some personality so to speak (or not as in your case)?

The rest of your summary (which was longer than the post) was the usual rambling monologue that you are famous for.

Vacuous in the extreme you will never change. I personally have had enough of you and your spam.

It's time to go Rolf. You are a pain in the backside.

See you in two weeks (but hopefully it's longer.....much longer......).

Christopher

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Bill Rogers
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Re: For Clones we dont need private police but Good logic

Post by Bill Rogers » Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:35 am

Hello Chris
If Rolf is wrong and you claim that there is another program that is stronger than Rybka then why don't you name it instead of just blowing hot air and demeaning a fellow member.
Although the quote is not exactly the right fit. Put your money where you mouth is" in a round about way fits.
Bill

Christopher Conkie
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Re: For Clones we dont need private police but Good logic

Post by Christopher Conkie » Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:41 am

Bill Rogers wrote:Hello Chris
If Rolf is wrong and you claim that there is another program that is stronger than Rybka then why don't you name it instead of just blowing hot air and demeaning a fellow member.
Although the quote is not exactly the right fit. Put your money where you mouth is" in a round about way fits.
Bill
Why would I want to advertise a clone? I can only assure you that its the truth.

:)

What is really demeaning is the contempt Rolf shows for this place. Anyway he's gone now....so not to worry.

Christopher

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Olivier Deville
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Re: For Clones we dont need private police but Good logic

Post by Olivier Deville » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:45 am

Graham Banks wrote:
Olivier Deville wrote: Are you happy you spent hours of CPU time testing Crimson (not following my advice) ?

In my opinion, Cyclone is a trojan horse. He offers you a "legal clone" or "derivative" but later he will try to cheat you once more.

But again, if you like to be cheated...

Olivier
No, I'm not happy about wasted computer testing time.

Yes, we should be angry about what Norm did wrong, but we should also be prepared to accept that he could learn from it and not repeat his indiscretions. Then again, you could be proven correct. Time will tell.

I value your friendship and advice Olivier, but that doesn't mean that we'll always agree on things. :wink:

Cheers,
Graham.
OK Graham

Let me add a few lines of code to some GPL project, make it GPL, and I will be able to enter "my own engine" in your tournament.

Sigh...

Olivier

Alexander Schmidt
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Re: For Clones we dont need private police but Good logic

Post by Alexander Schmidt » Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:31 am

Rolf wrote:The comparison sucks
Discussions with u sucks :lol:

We where talking about a Viper clone, why do you lead the discussion to Rybka again? Do you want to start a new flamewar? Without me...

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Graham Banks
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Re: For Clones we dont need private police but Good logic

Post by Graham Banks » Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:58 am

Olivier Deville wrote: OK Graham

Let me add a few lines of code to some GPL project, make it GPL, and I will be able to enter "my own engine" in your tournament.

Sigh...

Olivier
I have a limit Olivier. :wink:

For example, Grapefruit is currently the Fruit/Toga family representative in my amateur tournament series. I won't include Fruit, Toga, Cyclone or TheMadPrune. Of course, if the new Cyclone is stronger, it will replace Grapefruit as the Fruit/Toga family representative.

Likewise, Stockfish is the Glaurung family representative.

I prefer original engines though, much like many others, so I limit the use of derivative engines in my tournaments.

Cheers,
Graham.
My email addresses:
gbanksnz at gmail.com
gbanksnz at yahoo.co.nz

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Olivier Deville
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Re: For Clones we dont need private police but Good logic

Post by Olivier Deville » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:20 am

Graham Banks wrote:
Olivier Deville wrote: OK Graham

Let me add a few lines of code to some GPL project, make it GPL, and I will be able to enter "my own engine" in your tournament.

Sigh...

Olivier
I have a limit Olivier. :wink:

For example, Grapefruit is currently the Fruit/Toga family representative in my amateur tournament series. I won't include Fruit, Toga, Cyclone or TheMadPrune. Of course, if the new Cyclone is stronger, it will replace Grapefruit as the Fruit/Toga family representative.

Likewise, Stockfish is the Glaurung family representative.

I prefer original engines though, much like many others, so I limit the use of derivative engines in my tournaments.

Cheers,
Graham.
OK this could be worse, derivatives are a real pain in my opinion.

Still, I feel testing Cyclone or any production by Norman Schmidt is not right.

Read his homepage and tell me if he learned something :

http://www.chesslogik.com/

I can see gratuitous attacks against some valued members of the computer chess community. By testing Norman Schmidt's engines, you are supporting such attacks in some way.

Can't you see the moral issue ?

Olivier

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