Norm Schmidt .....and the computer chess

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Graham Banks
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Re: For Clones we dont need private police but Good logic

Post by Graham Banks » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:26 am

Olivier Deville wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Olivier Deville wrote: OK Graham

Let me add a few lines of code to some GPL project, make it GPL, and I will be able to enter "my own engine" in your tournament.

Sigh...

Olivier
I have a limit Olivier. :wink:

For example, Grapefruit is currently the Fruit/Toga family representative in my amateur tournament series. I won't include Fruit, Toga, Cyclone or TheMadPrune. Of course, if the new Cyclone is stronger, it will replace Grapefruit as the Fruit/Toga family representative.

Likewise, Stockfish is the Glaurung family representative.

I prefer original engines though, much like many others, so I limit the use of derivative engines in my tournaments.

Cheers,
Graham.
OK this could be worse, derivatives are a real pain in my opinion.

Still, I feel testing Cyclone or any production by Norman Schmidt is not right.

Read his homepage and tell me if he learned something :

http://www.chesslogik.com/

I can see gratuitous attacks against some valued members of the computer chess community. By testing Norman Schmidt's engines, you are supporting such attacks in some way.

Can't you see the moral issue ?

Olivier
Yes, I can understand your point of view.

I suspect that Norm is reacting the way that he is because he has no right of reply here, and also because he's been banned from CCC while we allow other equally (or worse) guilty cloners to remain as members here.

Cheers,
Graham.
gbanksnz at gmail.com

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Olivier Deville
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Re: For Clones we dont need private police but Good logic

Post by Olivier Deville » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:41 am

Graham Banks wrote:
Olivier Deville wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Olivier Deville wrote: OK Graham

Let me add a few lines of code to some GPL project, make it GPL, and I will be able to enter "my own engine" in your tournament.

Sigh...

Olivier
I have a limit Olivier. :wink:

For example, Grapefruit is currently the Fruit/Toga family representative in my amateur tournament series. I won't include Fruit, Toga, Cyclone or TheMadPrune. Of course, if the new Cyclone is stronger, it will replace Grapefruit as the Fruit/Toga family representative.

Likewise, Stockfish is the Glaurung family representative.

I prefer original engines though, much like many others, so I limit the use of derivative engines in my tournaments.

Cheers,
Graham.
OK this could be worse, derivatives are a real pain in my opinion.

Still, I feel testing Cyclone or any production by Norman Schmidt is not right.

Read his homepage and tell me if he learned something :

http://www.chesslogik.com/

I can see gratuitous attacks against some valued members of the computer chess community. By testing Norman Schmidt's engines, you are supporting such attacks in some way.

Can't you see the moral issue ?

Olivier
Yes, I can understand your point of view.

I suspect that Norm is reacting the way that he is because he has no right of reply here, and also because he's been banned from CCC while we allow other equally (or worse) guilty cloners to remain as members here.

Cheers,
Graham.
A very inconsistent answer. IIRC he was banned because he broke the charter. Besides, there are other forums where he can post freely.

So you do not condemn such rudeness. Too bad, really.

I think you should discuss the issue with other CCRL members.

Olivier

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Graham Banks
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Re: For Clones we dont need private police but Good logic

Post by Graham Banks » Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:00 am

Olivier Deville wrote:
Graham Banks wrote: Yes, I can understand your point of view.

I suspect that Norm is reacting the way that he is because he has no right of reply here, and also because he's been banned from CCC while we allow other equally (or worse) guilty cloners to remain as members here.

Cheers,
Graham.
A very inconsistent answer. IIRC he was banned because he broke the charter. Besides, there are other forums where he can post freely.

So you do not condemn such rudeness. Too bad, really.

I think you should discuss the issue with other CCRL members.

Olivier
I am all for consistency. Why do we allow equally guilty or worse guilty cloners to remain as members of CCC, knowing full well what they've done? Isn't that sort of condoning their actions?
I think we should look in our own mirror first.

I don't like the tone of Norm's criticisms on his website, despite whatever else I've said.

Cheers,
Graham.
gbanksnz at gmail.com

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Graham Banks
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Re: For Clones we dont need private police but Good logic

Post by Graham Banks » Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:09 am

SzG wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:Of course, if the new Cyclone is stronger, it will replace Grapefruit as the Fruit/Toga family representative.
Hi Graham,

You can't tell if it's stronger until you test it.
That's why I will test it first.
gbanksnz at gmail.com

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Olivier Deville
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Re: For Clones we dont need private police but Good logic

Post by Olivier Deville » Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:56 am

Graham Banks wrote:
Olivier Deville wrote:
Graham Banks wrote: Yes, I can understand your point of view.

I suspect that Norm is reacting the way that he is because he has no right of reply here, and also because he's been banned from CCC while we allow other equally (or worse) guilty cloners to remain as members here.

Cheers,
Graham.
A very inconsistent answer. IIRC he was banned because he broke the charter. Besides, there are other forums where he can post freely.

So you do not condemn such rudeness. Too bad, really.

I think you should discuss the issue with other CCRL members.

Olivier
I am all for consistency. Why do we allow equally guilty or worse guilty cloners to remain as members of CCC, knowing full well what they've done? Isn't that sort of condoning their actions?
I think we should look in our own mirror first.

I don't like the tone of Norm's criticisms on his website, despite whatever else I've said.

Cheers,
Graham.
I don't care much about the (very well deserved) ban at CCC, and I suppose it will be lifted when a new moderation team is elected. Even Rolf is banned on a regular basis, and is allowed to come back.

I do care about what is posted on his website, and I would never test an engine under these conditions. Why don't you request the insults to be removed before you start any test ? At least I would do that if I were in your shoes.

Olivier

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Graham Banks
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Re: For Clones we dont need private police but Good logic

Post by Graham Banks » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:08 am

Olivier Deville wrote:.
I do care about what is posted on his website, and I would never test an engine under these conditions. Why don't you request the insults to be removed before you start any test ? At least I would do that if I were in your shoes.

Olivier
Take a look. Treating people with a modicum of respect works sometimes. :wink:

Cheers,
Graham.
gbanksnz at gmail.com

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Graham Banks
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Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: For Clones we dont need private police but Good logic

Post by Graham Banks » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:46 am

Graham Banks wrote:
Olivier Deville wrote:.
I do care about what is posted on his website, and I would never test an engine under these conditions. Why don't you request the insults to be removed before you start any test ? At least I would do that if I were in your shoes.

Olivier
Take a look. Treating people with a modicum of respect works sometimes. :wink:

Cheers,
Graham.
I'll ask him if he will remove the offensive comments.

Cheers,
Graham.
gbanksnz at gmail.com

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Olivier Deville
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Location: Aurec, France
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Re: For Clones we dont need private police but Good logic

Post by Olivier Deville » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:53 am

Graham Banks wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Olivier Deville wrote:.
I do care about what is posted on his website, and I would never test an engine under these conditions. Why don't you request the insults to be removed before you start any test ? At least I would do that if I were in your shoes.

Olivier
Take a look. Treating people with a modicum of respect works sometimes. :wink:

Cheers,
Graham.
I'll ask him if he will remove the offensive comments.

Cheers,
Graham.
Yes more lies...

Olivier

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Graham Banks
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Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: For Clones we dont need private police but Good logic

Post by Graham Banks » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:57 am

Olivier Deville wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Olivier Deville wrote:.
I do care about what is posted on his website, and I would never test an engine under these conditions. Why don't you request the insults to be removed before you start any test ? At least I would do that if I were in your shoes.

Olivier
Take a look. Treating people with a modicum of respect works sometimes. :wink:

Cheers,
Graham.
I'll ask him if he will remove the offensive comments.

Cheers,
Graham.
Yes more lies...

Olivier
I was looking at the wrong part of the website and saw the comments after I posted. I will ask Norm if he is prepared to remove them.
gbanksnz at gmail.com

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Olivier Deville
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Re: For Clones we dont need private police but Good logic

Post by Olivier Deville » Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:08 am

Graham Banks wrote:
Olivier Deville wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Olivier Deville wrote:.
I do care about what is posted on his website, and I would never test an engine under these conditions. Why don't you request the insults to be removed before you start any test ? At least I would do that if I were in your shoes.

Olivier
Take a look. Treating people with a modicum of respect works sometimes. :wink:

Cheers,
Graham.
I'll ask him if he will remove the offensive comments.

Cheers,
Graham.
Yes more lies...

Olivier
I was looking at the wrong part of the website and saw the comments after I posted. I will ask Norm if he is prepared to remove them.
OK thanks Graham

Olivier

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