CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

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tano-urayoan
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by tano-urayoan » Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:48 pm

Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
tano-urayoan wrote:Following the games you posted there is a problem. In the first and third neither engine is using a book. In the second and fourth one the book was just 2 moves.

You should check your configuration for this test.
He's using the right configuration but unfortunately his test shows no sense as every time Rybka plays 1.Nc3,there is not much to be answered with....
Dr.D
But things could not be right if in 2 games neither engine used a book and in the other 2 the book was just 2 moves and the engine with book made the first move either Nf3 or d4
Last edited by tano-urayoan on Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pichy
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by pichy » Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:49 pm

Guenther wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
tano-urayoan wrote:Following the games you posted there is a problem. In the first and third neither engine is using a book. In the second and fourth one the book was just 2 moves.

You should check your configuration for this test.
He's using the right configuration but unfortunately his test shows no sense as every time Rybka plays 1.Nc3,there is not much to be answered with....
Dr.D
Do you mean the used book has _zero_ book moves against 1. Nc3?
Well he could have noticed this already in the second game then ;-)

Guenther
I simply let the computer play all those games without even checking on them, until I posted games from 76 to 100. I am gald that somebody took the time to check those games, since I was going to let the computer play another worthless 100 games.

PS: It would be the same if I have chosen to play 1.h3 as my first move, which I used to beat Crafty online 8 years ago. :lol:

I still believe that if somebody build a small opening book of just the first 8 half moves for Rybka 3 it will beat the majority of the programs, since all that Rybka needs is to start in the right direction with a lot of different starting positions to beat the nearest strongest program.

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:25 pm

Guenther wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
tano-urayoan wrote:Following the games you posted there is a problem. In the first and third neither engine is using a book. In the second and fourth one the book was just 2 moves.

You should check your configuration for this test.
He's using the right configuration but unfortunately his test shows no sense as every time Rybka plays 1.Nc3,there is not much to be answered with....
Dr.D
Do you mean the used book has _zero_ book moves against 1. Nc3?
Well he could have noticed this already in the second game then ;-)

Guenther
No,the opening book has a responce against 1. Nc3 but ti's poorly developed,8 halfmoves at best....
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:26 pm

tano-urayoan wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
tano-urayoan wrote:Following the games you posted there is a problem. In the first and third neither engine is using a book. In the second and fourth one the book was just 2 moves.

You should check your configuration for this test.
He's using the right configuration but unfortunately his test shows no sense as every time Rybka plays 1.Nc3,there is not much to be answered with....
Dr.D
But things could not be right if in 2 games neither engine used a book and in the other 2 the book was just 2 moves and the engine with book made the first move either Nf3 or d4
Yes,I agree that something wrong is going on....
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

Guenther
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by Guenther » Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:45 pm

Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Guenther wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
tano-urayoan wrote:Following the games you posted there is a problem. In the first and third neither engine is using a book. In the second and fourth one the book was just 2 moves.

You should check your configuration for this test.
He's using the right configuration but unfortunately his test shows no sense as every time Rybka plays 1.Nc3,there is not much to be answered with....
Dr.D
Do you mean the used book has _zero_ book moves against 1. Nc3?
Well he could have noticed this already in the second game then ;-)

Guenther
No,the opening book has a responce against 1. Nc3 but ti's poorly developed,8 halfmoves at best....
Dr.D
Why did you say then he used the right configuration?
I am surprised that neither you nor Jorge obviously read posts
before you answer, otherwise you had long noticed that program B
was already out of book after 1. Nc3!!!

Thanks god, at least Tano-Urayoan immediately got all right,
but it seems we both wasted just some time preaching to stones ;-)

Guenther

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:01 pm

Guenther wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Guenther wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
tano-urayoan wrote:Following the games you posted there is a problem. In the first and third neither engine is using a book. In the second and fourth one the book was just 2 moves.

You should check your configuration for this test.
He's using the right configuration but unfortunately his test shows no sense as every time Rybka plays 1.Nc3,there is not much to be answered with....
Dr.D
Do you mean the used book has _zero_ book moves against 1. Nc3?
Well he could have noticed this already in the second game then ;-)

Guenther
No,the opening book has a responce against 1. Nc3 but ti's poorly developed,8 halfmoves at best....
Dr.D
Why did you say then he used the right configuration?
I am surprised that neither you nor Jorge obviously read posts
before you answer, otherwise you had long noticed that program B
was already out of book after 1. Nc3!!!

Thanks god, at least Tano-Urayoan immediately got all right,
but it seems we both wasted just some time preaching to stones ;-)

Guenther
I read everything carefuly and that's why I told you that the answer against 1. Nc3 in this outdated opening book is poor....
As for the configuration,yes,he posted the parameters and they are about right...as for the games where the two sides didn't use the opening book,you can terminate Jeorge for this :wink:
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

tano-urayoan
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by tano-urayoan » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:13 pm

Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
No,the opening book has a responce against 1. Nc3 but ti's poorly developed,8 halfmoves at best....
Dr.D



I read everything carefuly and that's why I told you that the answer against 1. Nc3 in this outdated opening book is poor....
As for the configuration,yes,he posted the parameters and they are about right...as for the games where the two sides didn't use the opening book,you can terminate Jeorge for this :wink:
Dr.D
The problem is that the games that started with Nc3 neither of the engines used a book. (games 1-3-5)

In the games that engine A used a book it was just 2 or moves (2-4-6)
example game 2 d4 g6 Nf3 Nf6 and again white started analysing on his own but the simple c4 transpose to any indian defense (kings indian,gruenfeld, benoni or even a benko) white choose to play Nc3.
game 4 Nf3 Nc6 d4 d5 here engine started 'thinking' before playing c4 where this is just a transposition to the Chigorin defense.
game 6 repeated the moves from game 4.

So either he is using a wrong configuration transpositions unmarked, or he is using a 2 move book. Because even a 8 move book will know that c4 is a transposition to the Chigorin defense or a queens gambit vs and indian set up.
Last edited by tano-urayoan on Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Guenther
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by Guenther » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:26 pm

tano-urayoan wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
No,the opening book has a responce against 1. Nc3 but ti's poorly developed,8 halfmoves at best....
Dr.D



I read everything carefuly and that's why I told you that the answer against 1. Nc3 in this outdated opening book is poor....
As for the configuration,yes,he posted the parameters and they are about right...as for the games where the two sides didn't use the opening book,you can terminate Jeorge for this :wink:
Dr.D
The problem is that the games that started with Nc3 neither of the engines used a book. (games 1-3-5)

In the games that engine A used a book it was just 2 or moves (2-4-6)
example game 4 d4 Nc6 Nf3 d5 here engine started 'thinking' before playing c4 where this is just a transposition to the Chigorin defense.
game 2 d4 g6 Nf3 Nf6 and again white started analysing on his own but the simple c4 transpose to any indian defense (kings indian,gruenfeld, benoni or even a benko) white choose to play Nc3 and then again this could trasnpose a to a modern or pirc but white was out of book again.
You have much more patience than me, good luck :)

Guenther

tano-urayoan
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by tano-urayoan » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:42 pm

Guenther wrote: You have much more patience than me, good luck :)

Guenther
I try my best. Patience is a virtue someone said, but I have limits too.

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Mike S.
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by Mike S. » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:51 pm

I think, for this experiment no book at all for one side is not optimal, as we can see from always 1.Nc3 for White. I would use a solid, large book for the other engine, and a short - maybe 3 full moves deep - book, with wide variety, for the "no book" engine. By that, we wouldn't see "engine novelties" earlier than at move no. 4, but 1.Nc3 problems and similar could be avoided.

I guess we don't expect sensations within moves no. 1...3 anyway. 500+ years of master chess practice and analysis should guarantee that, at least...
Regards, Mike

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