CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:27 am

Graham Banks wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Kurt Utzinger wrote: Hi Graham
Many thanks for your prompt reply. Can we talk about a bad book line if the book contains moves that even a 400 Elo-rated player would never play in his life. If this relates to one particular move that's would be ok, but seven almost incredible moves in a game of only 13 moves??
Kind regards
Kurt
Exactly my point....and we're talking about early opening line moves,not a 80 halfmoves opening line....
With all due respect Wael, I don't think that this should be turned into another dig at Harry. He deserves better appreciation for his efforts to our community.

Cheers,
Graham.
This is not my intention....long had gone the times when I want to start a flame war or personal attacks becuase of this or that opening book....
I am criticizing this particular opening line and as you can see I am not the only one....
You're right,there is no such thing as perfect opening book,but there are better opening books out there....
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

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Graham Banks
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by Graham Banks » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:31 am

Dr.Wael Deeb wrote: I am criticizing this particular opening line and as you can see I am not the only one....
It is a bad opening line for sure. Nobody can argue against that.
gbanksnz at gmail.com

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:17 pm

Graham Banks wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote: I am criticizing this particular opening line and as you can see I am not the only one....
It is a bad opening line for sure. Nobody can argue against that.
Anyway,making an Arena opening book is a nightmare and you have to be alert regarding the quality of the damn thing....
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:22 pm

SzG wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote: You're right,there is no such thing as perfect opening book,but there are better opening books out there....
Dr.D
Hi Wael,

Please name a few, I would like to try them.
Hi Gabor,
I will dig a thread in the Rybka forum and get back to you :D
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

pichy
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by pichy » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:39 pm

Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Kurt Utzinger wrote: Hi Graham
Many thanks for your prompt reply. Can we talk about a bad book line if the book contains moves that even a 400 Elo-rated player would never play in his life. If this relates to one particular move that's would be ok, but seven almost incredible moves in a game of only 13 moves??
Kind regards
Kurt
Exactly my point....and we're talking about early opening line moves,not a 80 halfmoves opening line....
With all due respect Wael, I don't think that this should be turned into another dig at Harry. He deserves better appreciation for his efforts to our community.

Cheers,
Graham.
This is not my intention....long had gone the times when I want to start a flame war or personal attacks becuase of this or that opening book....
I am criticizing this particular opening line and as you can see I am not the only one....
You're right,there is no such thing as perfect opening book,but there are better opening books out there....
Dr.D
You're right, but today's engines should be able to analyze at least two moves ahead before they continue to play any opening line this should only take a fraction of a second.

PS: By the way you have a great opening book, continue the hard work and thanks.

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Mike S.
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by Mike S. » Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:21 pm

I can only imagine that such blunders come into a book by importing a "broken" game. I guess almost all big databases to work with, will contain a couple of such games.

But normally, an Arena book will never play such moves if the book option

Minimal number of games: 2
(or bigger; Fritz' "optimal setting" value is 3 here)

because it is highly unlikely that moves like 6...Ba3 and 9...Qc6 were played more than once. - The min. percentages should be another safety net against such moves, although if a game was broken the result could be wrong, too.

So, even if a book or the database it is based upon, does contain some of such blunders, proper book options should prevent that they are played from an Arena book.

P.S. My most recent free Arena book is based on Norm Pollock's HQ. collection of IM/GM games, quite big and by default with max. 40 plies:

http://remixshare.com/?file=98y1zx6wa1
(requires: http://7-zip.org/ )
Regards, Mike

Norm Pollock
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by Norm Pollock » Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:13 pm

Mike S. wrote:I can only imagine that such blunders come into a book by importing a "broken" game. I guess almost all big databases to work with, will contain a couple of such games.

But normally, an Arena book will never play such moves if the book option

Minimal number of games: 2
(or bigger; Fritz' "optimal setting" value is 3 here)

because it is highly unlikely that moves like 6...Ba3 and 9...Qc6 were played more than once. - The min. percentages should be another safety net against such moves, although if a game was broken the result could be wrong, too.

So, even if a book or the database it is based upon, does contain some of such blunders, proper book options should prevent that they are played from an Arena book.
In making an opening book there are certain precautions that should be taken.

A book is derived from the positions in a database of played games. The quality of the games in the database can be very high overall but there are bound to be a few undetected games containing tactical blunders of varying depths (1 move, 2 move, etc).

This is an understandable occurrence with human players. The best way to eliminate the tactical blunders is to do a computer analysis of each move of each game of the database. Since the database is usually very large, that is not practical. That brings up the issue of "filtering" out potential blunders from the database as the opening book is created or being used.

I recommend 5 types of filtering.

First, you have to have games between expert players. For human games I would only use games where both players have an elo of 2400+. Games between chess engines are dangerous to use in creating opening books. Although the elite chess engines do not make short tactical blunders, they themselves use opening books that may contain blunders in the first 12 moves, as shown by the example that started this thread.

Secondly, I would require a minimum number of position occurrences beyond "1". That means that if a tactical blunder occurs, it had to have been made more than once. I prefer using "3" as the minimum. However a higher minimum has a cost. A brilliant move that occurred less often than the minimum would not be included in the book.

Thirdly, I would require all games in the database to have lasted substantially beyond the opening. If I am making an opening book of 12 moves, I would only use a database of games that lasted beyond 24 moves. The reasoning is that a game that ended early might have terminated because of an opening blunder. Another reason to require longer games is to filter out "grandmaster draws" which are games drawn for personal reasons even if one of the players had a substantial advantage in the opening.

Fourthly, I would only use games in the database played within the last 10 years. Opening theory is always evolving, especially with computer analysis.

Fifthly, I would only use games in the database that were played with full time-control, as opposed to blitz and rapid games.

By the way, I have created databases of games meeting the criteria I have mentioned. See my home page (click on "www" below). The databases are separated into different time spans.

-Norm

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Mike S.
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by Mike S. » Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:33 pm

Yes, thanks. I know your high quality collections which are very appreciated. I generated two books from your collections, for Fritz & Arena (link see above in my other posting), but starting with 1991. For me it's not risky to include somewhat older games as I use these books mainly for engine testing and as a generic opening reference, not for online competition.

I did apply similar criterias as you mentioned, when I created books from other game databases too, in recent years, with the exception that I didn't care to exclude "old" games. (Really old games before 1970 were exlcuded due to an Elo minimum anyway.)

I would not object against inclusion of (strong) correspondence games.

In Fritz, most of the time I use min. games = 3 too (but rest "normal" for more variety).
Last edited by Mike S. on Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Regards, Mike

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:36 pm

pichy wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Kurt Utzinger wrote: Hi Graham
Many thanks for your prompt reply. Can we talk about a bad book line if the book contains moves that even a 400 Elo-rated player would never play in his life. If this relates to one particular move that's would be ok, but seven almost incredible moves in a game of only 13 moves??
Kind regards
Kurt
Exactly my point....and we're talking about early opening line moves,not a 80 halfmoves opening line....
With all due respect Wael, I don't think that this should be turned into another dig at Harry. He deserves better appreciation for his efforts to our community.

Cheers,
Graham.
This is not my intention....long had gone the times when I want to start a flame war or personal attacks becuase of this or that opening book....
I am criticizing this particular opening line and as you can see I am not the only one....
You're right,there is no such thing as perfect opening book,but there are better opening books out there....
Dr.D
You're right, but today's engines should be able to analyze at least two moves ahead before they continue to play any opening line this should only take a fraction of a second.

PS: By the way you have a great opening book, continue the hard work and thanks.
Thanks George,it's called q8.abk and it has been under active developement more than 7 years for now....
Someday I will release it....
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

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Graham Banks
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Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by Graham Banks » Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:20 pm

Mike S. wrote:Yes, thanks. I know your high quality collections which are very appreciated. I generated two books from your collections, for Fritz & Arena (link see above in my other posting), but starting with 1991. For me it's not risky to include somewhat older games as I use these books mainly for engine testing and as a generic opening reference, not for online competition.

I did apply similar criterias as you mentioned, when I created books from other game databases too, in recent years, with the exception that I didn't care to exclude "old" games. (Really old games before 1970 were exlcuded due to an Elo minimum anyway.)

I would not object against inclusion of (strong) correspondence games.

In Fritz, most of the time I use min. games = 3 too (but rest "normal" for more variety).
I might just add my appreciation for your books Mike, which I also continue to use for variety. For tournaments, I still like the small Xmas2640-12.ctg, Xmas2640.abk and Xmas2640b.bkt books.

Cheers,
Graham.
gbanksnz at gmail.com

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