CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

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pichy
Posts: 2564
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Re: The battle of HP-91-09_2500.abk vs HS-10 moves.abk

Post by pichy » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:25 am

pichy wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
pichy wrote:You are correct at no book at all is only a good option if the the book intended to be used is full of bugs like in the game Bright vs Cyclone xTreme.
Harry's book is actually a very high quality book, so you shouldn't be throwing around unnecessary remarks that sully his reputation.
I challenge you to go through his HS-10moves.abk book and post all the bad lines that you can find. I have never come across a line as bad as this one previously, so I'd say you'll be struggling.
You can also go through all the CCRL games played with this book and check the openings if you're so interested in looking for ammunition to damage his reputation. I can assure you you won't come up with much either way.
There are no perfect opening books, but I'll repeat my assertion that Harry's are among the very best. I have no qualms whatsoever about using them. I know that many of the CEGT testers share this opinion. The game posted is a one off.

Graham.
How can you delect the bad lines found in the game Bright vs Cyclone xTreme. Do you have a clean or filtered HS-10 moves.abk :?:
Yes, indeed Harry's book is still a very high quality book even if he has one poor bad lines as it was played in the game Bright vs Cyclone xTreme. I decided to test Harry's HS-10moves.abk which is a short book with high variety of lines versus HP91-99_2500.abk and here is the result so far.

Rybka v2.3.2a.w32-A is playing with HP91-09_2500.abk
Rybka v2.3.2a.w32-B is playing with HS-10 moves.abk

Engine Score Ry Ry S-B
1: Rybka v2.3.2a.w32-A 14.5/28 ···························· 1==1=======0====0=====0=0111 195.75
2: Rybka v2.3.2a.w32-B 13.5/28 0==0=======1====1=====1=1000 ···························· 195.75

28 of 100 games played
Name of the tournament: Arena tournament
Site/ Country: Jorge-07E2FB46AF, United States
Level: Tournament Game in 10 Minutes
Hardware: AMD Athlon(TM) XP 2000+ 1662 MHz with 992 MB Memory
Operating system: Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition Service Pack 3 (Build 2600)
PGN-File: C:\Program Files\Arena\Books\arena.pgn
Website:
E-Mail Address:

Here are the first two games and last two games played so far:



[Event "Arena tournament"]
[Site "Jorge-07E2FB46AF"]
[Date "2009.10.28"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Rybka v2.3.2a.w32-A"]
[Black "Rybka v2.3.2a.w32-B"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "2900"]
[ECO "A47"]
[Opening "Neo-Queen's Indian"]
[Variation "2..b6 3.e3 Bb7 4.Bd3 e6 5.O-O"]
[WhiteElo "2900"]
[TimeControl "600"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "100"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. e4 b6 2. d4 Bb7 3. Bd3 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. O-O Nc6 6. d5 Ne5 7. Nxe5 Bxe5
8. f4 Bg7 9. Nc3 c6 10. dxc6 Bxc6 11. Qe2 Bxc3 12. bxc3 Nf6 13. e5 Nd5 14.
c4 Nb4 15. f5 e6 16. f6 d5 17. Rd1 Nxd3 18. cxd3 O-O 19. Ba3 Re8 20. Bd6
Kh8 21. Qe3 Rg8 22. Rac1 Rc8 23. Rc3 Qd7 24. c5 bxc5 25. Bxc5 Bb5 26. Rdc1
a6 27. Bd6 Rc6 28. Rxc6 Bxc6 29. h4 Qb7 30. Kh2 g5 31. hxg5 d4 32. Qf4 Qa8
33. Rc2 Be8 34. Rc7 Qd5 35. Qd2 Qb5 36. Rc8 Qb7 37. Rc4 Qd5 38. a4 Bd7 39.
Qf4 Be8 40. Rxd4 Qa8 41. Qh4 Rg6 42. Bf8 Kg8 43. Bg7 h6 44. Bxh6 Qb8 45.
Rd6 Qb2 46. Rd8 Qxe5+ 47. Qg3 Qxg3+ 48. Kxg3 Kh7 49. Rxe8 e5 50. Rf8 Rxf6
{Black resigns} 1-0

[Event "Arena tournament"]
[Site "Jorge-07E2FB46AF"]
[Date "2009.10.28"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Rybka v2.3.2a.w32-B"]
[Black "Rybka v2.3.2a.w32-A"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "2900"]
[ECO "A45"]
[Opening "Trompowsky"]
[Variation "2...Ne4 3.Bh4 g5"]
[WhiteElo "2900"]
[TimeControl "600"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "324"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 h6 3. Bh4 g5 4. e3 Nf6 5. Bg3 d6 6. h4 Rg8 7. hxg5 hxg5 8.
Nc3 Rg6 9. Qd2 Rh6 10. Rxh6 Bxh6 11. O-O-O Nh5 12. Bh2 Nd7 13. Bd3 Ndf6 14.
e4 fxe4 15. Nxe4 Nxe4 16. Bxe4 Nf6 17. Bg6+ Kd7 18. Nf3 c6 19. Ne5+ Kc7 20.
Nf7 Qg8 21. Re1 Nd5 22. Bh5 Bf8 23. Qxg5 Qxg5+ 24. Nxg5 b5 25. c3 Bf5 26.
Ne6+ Kd7 27. Nxf8+ Rxf8 28. Bf3 Nf6 29. Bg3 Rh8 30. Kd2 a5 31. a3 a4 32.
Bf4 Ng4 33. Ke2 Be6 34. Bxg4 Bxg4+ 35. f3 Be6 36. Kf2 Rf8 37. Bh6 Rh8 38.
Bg5 Rh5 39. Bf4 Rf5 40. Bc1 Rh5 41. Be3 Bd5 42. Bf4 Rf5 43. Kg3 Rh5 44. Kg4
Rh8 45. Bc1 Bc4 46. Kg3 Bd5 47. Bg5 Be6 48. Bd2 Bd5 49. Bc1 Bb3 50. Kf2 Be6
51. Kg1 Rf8 52. Be3 Rh8 53. g4 Bd5 54. Kg2 Rf8 55. Rf1 Bc4 56. Rf2 Rh8 57.
Rd2 Rh7 58. Rd1 Rf7 59. Re1 Bd5 60. Rf1 Bc4 61. Rf2 Rh7 62. Bf4 Ke6 63. Rd2
Kf6 64. Rd1 Rh8 65. Re1 Rh7 66. Kg3 Kg6 67. Be3 Kf6 68. Bd2 Kg6 69. Bc1 Kf6
70. Be3 Kg6 71. Bf4 Bd5 72. Rb1 Bc4 73. Rd1 Bd5 74. Rf1 Bc4 75. Rb1 Bd5 76.
Be3 Rf7 77. Rf1 Bc4 78. Rc1 Bd5 79. f4 e6 80. Re1 Rh7 81. Bf2 Rh8 82. Bg1
Rh7 83. Rf1 Rh1 84. Rd1 Rh7 85. Re1 Rh8 86. Bf2 Rh1 87. Rxh1 Bxh1 88. Kh3
Be4 89. Bh4 Kf7 90. Kg3 Bc2 91. Bd8 Be4 92. Ba5 Ke7 93. Kh4 Bf3 94. Bb4 Bd1
95. Kg5 Bf3 96. f5 exf5 97. gxf5 Be4 98. Ba5 Bc2 99. Bb6 Kd7 100. Kf6 Be4
101. Ba5 Bc2 102. Kg6 Ke7 103. Bb6 Be4 104. Kg5 Bc2 105. Bc7 Be4 106. Kf4
Bd5 107. Ba5 Bb3 108. Bb6 Bd5 109. Kg5 Be4 110. f6+ Kf7 111. Ba7 Bg6 112.
Bb8 d5 113. Ba7 Be4 114. Bc5 Bg6 115. Bd6 Be4 116. Bb4 Bg6 117. Ba5 Bc2
118. Bc7 Bg6 119. Be5 Be4 120. Bd6 Bg6 121. Bc5 Bc2 122. Bb6 Bh7 123. Bd8
Bg6 124. Be7 Bc2 125. Kf4 Ke6 126. Kg4 Bg6 127. Kg5 Kf7 128. Kf4 Ke6 129.
Kg4 Kf7 130. Bd8 Bc2 131. Kf4 Ke6 132. Kg5 Kf7 133. Kh5 Be4 134. Be7 Bg6+
135. Kh4 Bc2 136. Bd8 Bg6 137. Kh3 Ke8 138. Be7 Kf7 139. Kg3 Bc2 140. Kf3
Bg6 141. Ke3 Bc2 142. Bd8 Ke8 143. Bb6 Kf7 144. Kd2 Bf5 145. Bd8 Ke8 146.
Be7 Kf7 147. Ke2 Be4 148. Kf2 Bf5 149. Kg2 Bc2 150. Kg3 Bg6 151. Kh2 Bb1
152. Kh1 Be4+ 153. Kg1 Bg6 154. Kf1 Bd3+ 155. Ke1 Bh7 156. Kd1 Bd3 157. Bd8
Ke8 158. Bc7 Kf7 159. Kd2 Bf5 160. Be5 Ke6 161. Ke3 Bg4 162. Kd3 Bf5+ {50
moves rule} 1/2-1/2

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And here are the last two games so far:


[Event "Arena tournament"]
[Site "Jorge-07E2FB46AF"]
[Date "2009.10.29"]
[Round "27"]
[White "Rybka v2.3.2a.w32-A"]
[Black "Rybka v2.3.2a.w32-B"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "2900"]
[ECO "C02"]
[Opening "French"]
[Variation "Advance, Euwe, 6.a3"]
[WhiteElo "2900"]
[TimeControl "600"]
[Termination "adjudication"]
[PlyCount "182"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. d4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. Nf3 e6 4. Bg5 h6 5. Bxf6 Qxf6 6. e4 cxd4 7. cxd4 Bb4+
8. Nc3 O-O 9. Bd3 Nc6 10. e5 Qe7 11. O-O d5 12. Bc2 Na5 13. a3 Bxc3 14. Qd3
g6 15. Qxc3 b6 16. Rfc1 Bd7 17. Qd2 Kg7 18. Qf4 Rfc8 19. h4 Rc6 20. Bd3
Rac8 21. Re1 Nb3 22. Rad1 R6c7 23. Ba6 Rb8 24. Bf1 Ba4 25. Rb1 b5 26. Re3
a5 27. Be2 b4 28. Bd1 bxa3 29. bxa3 Qxa3 30. Qf6+ Kg8 31. h5 Qa2 32. Nd2
Kh7 33. Rd3 Rbb7 34. Rbxb3 Qa1 35. Qf3 Bxb3 36. Nxb3 Rxb3 37. Rxb3 Qxd4 38.
Re3 Qa1 39. Kh2 Qd4 40. hxg6+ fxg6 41. Kh3 Qa1 42. Be2 Qh1+ 43. Kg3 g5 44.
Qh5 Qxh5 45. Bxh5 Kg7 46. Rf3 a4 47. Be8 Rc4 48. Rf7+ Kh8 49. f3 a3 50. Ra7
Rc2 51. Rxa3 Re2 52. Ra6 Rxe5 53. Bd7 Kg7 54. Rxe6 Rxe6 55. Bxe6 d4 56. Bc4
h5 57. f4 Kg6 58. Bd3+ Kf6 59. Kf3 gxf4 60. Kxf4 h4 61. Kg4 h3 62. gxh3 Ke7
63. h4 Kf6 64. h5 Kg7 65. Kg5 Kf7 66. h6 Kg8 67. Kg6 Kh8 68. Bc4 d3 69.
Bxd3 Kg8 70. Bf1 Kh8 71. Bg2 Kg8 72. Bd5+ Kh8 73. Be4 Kg8 74. Kg5 Kh8 75.
Kf6 Kg8 76. Ke7 Kh8 77. Kd6 Kg8 78. Ke6 Kh8 79. Bd3 Kg8 80. Kd7 Kf7 81. Bc2
Kf8 82. Kd6 Kf7 83. Ke5 Kg8 84. Kf6 Kh8 85. Bf5 Kg8 86. Kg5 Kh8 87. Be4 Kg8
88. Kf4 Kf7 89. Bh7 Kf6 90. Kg4 Ke7 91. Bg8 Kf6 92. ... {1-0 Arena
Adjudication} 1-0

[Event "Arena tournament"]
[Site "Jorge-07E2FB46AF"]
[Date "2009.10.29"]
[Round "28"]
[White "Rybka v2.3.2a.w32-B"]
[Black "Rybka v2.3.2a.w32-A"]
[Result "0-1"]
[BlackElo "2900"]
[ECO "A36"]
[Opening "English"]
[Variation "Symmetrical, Keres-Parma System"]
[WhiteElo "2900"]
[TimeControl "600"]
[Termination "adjudication"]
[PlyCount "153"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. b3 c5 2. Bb2 Nc6 3. e3 Nf6 4. Nf3 e6 5. Ne5 Nxe5 6. Bxe5 Be7 7. Bd3 d6
8. Bb2 Bd7 9. O-O O-O 10. c4 Bc6 11. Nc3 d5 12. Qc2 d4 13. exd4 cxd4 14.
Ne2 e5 15. Ng3 Re8 16. Rae1 Bc5 17. Re2 g6 18. Rfe1 Qd6 19. h4 a5 20. h5
Rad8 21. Qb1 Re7 22. hxg6 hxg6 23. Bxg6 fxg6 24. Qxg6+ Rg7 25. Qxg7+ Kxg7
26. Nf5+ Kf7 27. Nxd6+ Bxd6 28. Rxe5 Rg8 29. g3 Bxe5 30. Rxe5 Ne4 31. Bxd4
Rd8 32. Bb6 Rxd2 33. Rxa5 Rd1+ 34. Kh2 Nxf2 35. g4 Nxg4+ 36. Kg3 Nf6 37.
Kf2 Rd3 38. Ke2 Rh3 39. Kd2 Kg6 40. Ra8 Kf5 41. Ra5+ Kg4 42. Ra8 Nd7 43.
Bc7 Nc5 44. Bb6 Ne4+ 45. Kc2 Kf5 46. a3 Rh2+ 47. Kd3 Rd2+ 48. Ke3 Rb2 49.
b4 Nd6 50. Ra5+ Kg4 51. Kd4 Rd2+ 52. Kc3 Ne4+ 53. Kb3 Rd3+ 54. Kc2 Rc3+ 55.
Kb2 Rxc4 56. Be3 b5 57. Ra7 Nc3 58. Ka1 Na4 59. Bd2 Kf3 60. Rh7 Rc2 61. Rh6
Bb7 62. Rh3+ Kf2 63. Bg5 Nc3 64. Bh4+ Kf1 65. Rxc3 Rxc3 66. Kb2 Rf3 67. Be7
Ke2 68. Bc5 Bd5 69. Kc2 Rxa3 70. Bd4 Rh3 71. Be5 Rh4 72. Bd6 Rc4+ 73. Kb2
Be4 74. Be5 Rc2+ 75. Kb1 Rc5+ 76. Kb2 Rxe5 77. Kc3 ... {0-1 Arena
Adjudication} 0-1

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:56 am

Guenther wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Guenther wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
tano-urayoan wrote:Following the games you posted there is a problem. In the first and third neither engine is using a book. In the second and fourth one the book was just 2 moves.

You should check your configuration for this test.
He's using the right configuration but unfortunately his test shows no sense as every time Rybka plays 1.Nc3,there is not much to be answered with....
Dr.D
Do you mean the used book has _zero_ book moves against 1. Nc3?
Well he could have noticed this already in the second game then ;-)

Guenther
No,the opening book has a responce against 1. Nc3 but ti's poorly developed,8 halfmoves at best....
Dr.D
I downloaded the Rybka.abk and looked it up now. You are wrong
and this book has _no_ move against 1. Nc3!
(No matter if min games is set to 1 or >1)
Thus you two times made a wrong answer here despite my questioning.

The case is closed now. There were two setup problems.
a: Jorge did not check the transposition box
b: He used a book which does not cover 1. Nc3 at all

Thanks to Tano and Mike for trying to clear up this mystery.

Guenther
I told you that I'm not sure as the Rybka.abk is an ancient opening book from the prehistoric periods....Before 3 years I found a way,an approach to fine tune and optimize a .abk opening book much faster and safer....

In my opinion it's better to not have an answer for 1. Nc3 rather than having a series of stupid opening lines,agreed :!: :?:

Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

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Guenther
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by Guenther » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:57 am

Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Guenther wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Guenther wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
tano-urayoan wrote:Following the games you posted there is a problem. In the first and third neither engine is using a book. In the second and fourth one the book was just 2 moves.

You should check your configuration for this test.
He's using the right configuration but unfortunately his test shows no sense as every time Rybka plays 1.Nc3,there is not much to be answered with....
Dr.D
Do you mean the used book has _zero_ book moves against 1. Nc3?
Well he could have noticed this already in the second game then ;-)

Guenther
No,the opening book has a responce against 1. Nc3 but ti's poorly developed,8 halfmoves at best....
Dr.D
I downloaded the Rybka.abk and looked it up now. You are wrong
and this book has _no_ move against 1. Nc3!
(No matter if min games is set to 1 or >1)
Thus you two times made a wrong answer here despite my questioning.

The case is closed now. There were two setup problems.
a: Jorge did not check the transposition box
b: He used a book which does not cover 1. Nc3 at all

Thanks to Tano and Mike for trying to clear up this mystery.

Guenther
I told you that I'm not sure as the Rybka.abk is an ancient opening book from the prehistoric periods....Before 3 years I found a way,an approach to fine tune and optimize a .abk opening book much faster and safer....

In my opinion it's better to not have an answer for 1. Nc3 rather than having a series of stupid opening lines,agreed :!: :?:

Dr.D
I disagree, you only said the book is old and outdated, but you insisted
in _three_ posts that it covers moves against 1. Nc3, which is the point
of the topic. Now you suddenly change your argument, why?
We could have saved a lot of time if you had checked your previous
answers before posting.

BTW I also disagree with your last note. 1. Nc3 should be covered
at least with a few moves, as you also did with 1. f4.

( I would agree with moves like 1.c3 1. Nh3 1. g4, because here programs
normally are able to get good positions on their own)

Guenther

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Dr.Wael Deeb
Posts: 9773
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Location: Amman,Jordan

Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:21 pm

Guenther wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Guenther wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
Guenther wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
tano-urayoan wrote:Following the games you posted there is a problem. In the first and third neither engine is using a book. In the second and fourth one the book was just 2 moves.

You should check your configuration for this test.
He's using the right configuration but unfortunately his test shows no sense as every time Rybka plays 1.Nc3,there is not much to be answered with....
Dr.D
Do you mean the used book has _zero_ book moves against 1. Nc3?
Well he could have noticed this already in the second game then ;-)

Guenther
No,the opening book has a responce against 1. Nc3 but ti's poorly developed,8 halfmoves at best....
Dr.D
I downloaded the Rybka.abk and looked it up now. You are wrong
and this book has _no_ move against 1. Nc3!
(No matter if min games is set to 1 or >1)
Thus you two times made a wrong answer here despite my questioning.

The case is closed now. There were two setup problems.
a: Jorge did not check the transposition box
b: He used a book which does not cover 1. Nc3 at all

Thanks to Tano and Mike for trying to clear up this mystery.

Guenther
I told you that I'm not sure as the Rybka.abk is an ancient opening book from the prehistoric periods....Before 3 years I found a way,an approach to fine tune and optimize a .abk opening book much faster and safer....

In my opinion it's better to not have an answer for 1. Nc3 rather than having a series of stupid opening lines,agreed :!: :?:

Dr.D
I disagree, you only said the book is old and outdated, but you insisted
in _three_ posts that it covers moves against 1. Nc3, which is the point
of the topic. Now you suddenly change your argument, why?
We could have saved a lot of time if you had checked your previous
answers before posting.

BTW I also disagree with your last note. 1. Nc3 should be covered
at least with a few moves, as you also did with 1. f4.

( I would agree with moves like 1.c3 1. Nh3 1. g4, because here programs
normally are able to get good positions on their own)

Guenther
Yep,I've should have checked,but I am soooo not interested in the status of the Rybka.abk opening book,so I recalled from memory that it covers 1. Nc3....anyway,the topic is not so important to ague so much about although in nature I am a typical pedantic personality,just like you....
Dr.D

P.S.Oh,it's so well covered in the current q8.abk as long as many other things....
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

Norm Pollock
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by Norm Pollock » Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:12 pm

General opening books are not perfect. The major problem with them is that many opening lines exit with a position favoring one side. Sometimes that advantage is game-changing.

The second big problem with general opening books, as I see it, is that they can exit from an opening line in the middle of a complex situation like a gambit. Although the evaluation is neutral, unless the engine on the move realizes the gravity of the situation it might not give the situation enough time and make a fatal mistake.

On the other hand, general opening books usually give equal openings to both engines, and they also provide lots of variety. Consider the alternative, watching 2 engines each playing without a book. You would then see the same opening over and over, and maybe even the same game over and over. Furthermore the first 12 moves will take up half of the allotted game time.

I think the best way to use a general opening book is to just use it for the opening and not the middle game. What CCRL and CEGT do is the best approach. Use the opening book for 8 to 12 moves, this way the chance of playing a bug in the opening book is minimal as compared to using the opening book for 20+ moves. The first 8-12 moves are usually moves that have withstood years and years of analysis and are known to be solid. That would not be the case for moves beyond the first 12 moves.

Tournament books are another issue. They are custom made for particular openings suitable for one engine only. They use limited opening lines which have been carefully tested to be as bug-free as possible. If given the opportunity they will play well into the middle game, even up to 30 moves or more.

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Graham Banks
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by Graham Banks » Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:01 pm

Norm Pollock wrote:General opening books are not perfect. The major problem with them is that many opening lines exit with a position favoring one side. Sometimes that advantage is game-changing.

The second big problem with general opening books, as I see it, is that they can exit from an opening line in the middle of a complex situation like a gambit. Although the evaluation is neutral, unless the engine on the move realizes the gravity of the situation it might not give the situation enough time and make a fatal mistake.

On the other hand, general opening books usually give equal openings to both engines, and they also provide lots of variety. Consider the alternative, watching 2 engines each playing without a book. You would then see the same opening over and over, and maybe even the same game over and over. Furthermore the first 12 moves will take up half of the allotted game time.

I think the best way to use a general opening book is to just use it for the opening and not the middle game. What CCRL and CEGT do is the best approach. Use the opening book for 8 to 12 moves, this way the chance of playing a bug in the opening book is minimal as compared to using the opening book for 20+ moves. The first 8-12 moves are usually moves that have withstood years and years of analysis and are known to be solid. That would not be the case for moves beyond the first 12 moves.

Tournament books are another issue. They are custom made for particular openings suitable for one engine only. They use limited opening lines which have been carefully tested to be as bug-free as possible. If given the opportunity they will play well into the middle game, even up to 30 moves or more.
Well summed up Norm. :)
gbanksnz at gmail.com

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Mike S.
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by Mike S. » Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:45 pm

Absolutely! Indeed, we need to distinguish between:

1. The "actual" opening: Usually 8...10 moves (12 is a safe maximum)

2. The "opening" theory: Often, deep into the middlegame...

Move numbers like #18, #25 etc. may be theory in some variations, but that has nothing to do with the opening anymore.

From my viewpoint, opening variety across reasonable variations is a major factor for engine testing. I very much dislike competitions where 50% of the games are sicilian najdorfs. That is very poor style!
Regards, Mike

pichy
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Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by pichy » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:09 am

Mike S. wrote:I think, for this experiment no book at all for one side is not optimal, as we can see from always 1.Nc3 for White. I would use a solid, large book for the other engine, and a short - maybe 3 full moves deep - book, with wide variety, for the "no book" engine. By that, we wouldn't see "engine novelties" earlier than at move no. 4, but 1.Nc3 problems and similar could be avoided.

I guess we don't expect sensations within moves no. 1...3 anyway. 500+ years of master chess practice and analysis should guarantee that, at least...
Okay for the solid, large book I am using Rybka v2.3.2a.w32-A with NP99-09_2500.abk, and for the short with wide variety Rybka v2.3.2a.w32-B with HS-10 moves.abk. This is the score so far:


Engine Score Ry Ry S-B
1: Rybka v2.3.2a.w32-B 33.5/66 ·································································· 0==0=======1====1=====1=10000=1==10=10==0====111=1=1=1010=1=00=100 1088.7
2: Rybka v2.3.2a.w32-A 32.5/66 1==1=======0====0=====0=01111=0==01=01==1====000=0=0=0101=0=11=011 ·································································· 1088.7

66 of 100 games played
Name of the tournament: Arena tournament
Site/ Country: Jorge-07E2FB46AF, United States
Level: Tournament Game in 10 Minutes
Hardware: AMD Athlon(TM) XP 2000+ 1662 MHz with 992 MB Memory
Operating system: Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition Service Pack 3 (Build 2600)
PGN-File: C:\Program Files\Arena\Books\arena.pgn
Website:
E-Mail Address:

pichy
Posts: 2564
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:04 am

Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by pichy » Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:29 am

Mike S. wrote:I can only imagine that such blunders come into a book by importing a "broken" game. I guess almost all big databases to work with, will contain a couple of such games.

But normally, an Arena book will never play such moves if the book option

Minimal number of games: 2
(or bigger; Fritz' "optimal setting" value is 3 here)

because it is highly unlikely that moves like 6...Ba3 and 9...Qc6 were played more than once. - The min. percentages should be another safety net against such moves, although if a game was broken the result could be wrong, too.

So, even if a book or the database it is based upon, does contain some of such blunders, proper book options should prevent that they are played from an Arena book.

P.S. My most recent free Arena book is based on Norm Pollock's HQ. collection of IM/GM games, quite big and by default with max. 40 plies:

http://remixshare.com/?file=98y1zx6wa1
(requires: http://7-zip.org/ )
Mike you are correct again by saying tha under Arena a book will never play such moves if the book option is
Minimal number of games: 2

Rybka v2.3.2a.w32-A is playing with HP91-09_2500.abk
Rybka v2.3.2a.w32-B is playing with HS-10 moves.abk

Engine Score Ry Ry S-B
1: Rybka v2.3.2a.w32-A 42.5/85 ····················································································· 1==1=======0====0=====0=01111=0==01=01==1====000=0=0=0101=0=11=011====11===0=0===11=0 1806.2
1: Rybka v2.3.2a.w32-B 42.5/85 0==0=======1====1=====1=10000=1==10=10==0====111=1=1=1010=1=00=100====00===1=1===00=1 ····················································································· 1806.2

85 of 100 games played
Name of the tournament: Arena tournament
Site/ Country: Jorge-07E2FB46AF, United States
Level: Tournament Game in 10 Minutes
Hardware: AMD Athlon(TM) XP 2000+ 1662 MHz with 992 MB Memory
Operating system: Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition Service Pack 3 (Build 2600)
PGN-File: C:\Program Files\Arena\Books\arena.pgn
Website:
E-Mail Address:

User avatar
Dr.Wael Deeb
Posts: 9773
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:44 pm
Location: Amman,Jordan

Re: CCRL 40/40 - A most curious game

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:16 pm

Can you provide a link to download the games please :?:
Don't post them here,they'll rip you off for that :lol:
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

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