morality and legality of dowloading robbolito

[Rolf]

Uri, the poll has a serious bug. We are asking something that is decisive for a certain I say misbehavior and by definition people who misbehave cant have the freedom to vote in a unprejudiced manner. Because that would mean they admitted their own wrongdoing. For all when the misbehavior normally should have a judicial impact, say a legal punishment somehow. In real life it's the same. You buy a stolen car and are caught while driving it. Then you lose the car and your money plus further fees if you could have known that the car had been stolen. That is the law. And on top of that you have a poll where it's being asked if it's immoral to drive a stolen car. That is really funny. It's a breathtaking show to watch how the illegal side is preserving their lead as if that could finally prove that it cant be illegal to use illegal software. It cant, no? Can it?

[Watchman]

You trust Vas this much?

Sure. Why not. What reason has he given me not to trust his word?

Yes motive... there is a conflict of interest here. So what. The Standards for this "Forum Trial" are extremely low. Again I will say we can't base it on Criminal Law "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" and the "Innocent until Proven Guilty" Standards. Totally ridiculous given "we" aren't a government; we don't have courts and laws and judges and juries and attorneys to represent both sides. And Civil Law Preponderance of the Evidence is out too for essentially the same reasons.

previous statements from him have shown to be false.

What statements have been shown to be false??? Please. I would thank you to post at least two statements (you did say statements i.e. more than one) Vas is known to have publicly made that demonstrate he was providing a "false testimony."

All I ask is for him to put up or shut up.Seems he has chosen the shut up option.Therefore he has no proof or evidence.

Who are you? Just who are you that Vas should answer you? Maybe you hold the U.S. equivalent position of Attorney General in New Zealand. Or maybe you sit on a Governing Board for a Chess Federation in New Zealand. Maybe you're just like me... another peon in this world (no matter, I'd still like to buy you a pint and discuss this if were ever fortunate enough to visit New Zealand). Point is... Vas has no need to answer you (or any of us for that matter, which btw is the 3rd time I am making this point). And to then determine from this (that he doesn't answer you) he has no so-called "proof or evidence."

You show Vas your Court (and please don't say the court of public opinion) and maybe he will show you his "proof."

[Spacious_Mind]

The Poll is incredibly silly when you read the assumptions that are being placed against it.

Nothing has been shown or proven against the engine yet a person should feel morally wrong to use it. How very very strange is that?

Let the accusers provide some prove and then ask people how they morally feel.

This is pure hexenjagd based on what?

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hello Rolf,

Rolf:
Excuse me,

Frank:
Each time ...

Rolf:
I am no fan of life sentences,

Frank:
You means my other message in this thread for you ...
I think so Rolf, I think so ...

Rolf:
but for me you are always connected or linked with ElChinito,

Frank:
No, no ... I added the engine ELChinito on my webpage (not a link I ADDED IT), one of 60 engines I added in the past. Claimed that parts of Crafty in it and I deleted the engine.

I remember me on a joke for you only in CCC.
I believe I have written ... Perhaps a new engine for my shop.

I think a good statistic ...
With Patriot ... other bad situation ... only 2 of 60 !!

Rolf:
a program you once sold and which was a clone or illegal, whatever.

Frank:
Oh, you have a wrong information in your brain.
I never sold ELChinito ... ELChinito was free for every one.

I will give your brain a little update to Attack 2.0, OK ?
You means Patriot by Vladimir Yelin.

Yes, I sold Version 1.x. In version 2.x I sent bevore I started the marketing the version to different people. One of the people are the programmer from Wildcat. This programmer explain me ... Frank, Crafty code seems added. I gave the program Alexander Schmidt and two others ... same comments. In this case I never sold Patriot 2.0 and wrote about it in my News-Ticker, so see for every one.

Perhaps in Patriot 1 are also code of Crafty ?
But here I never get such a comment.

Rolf:
In other words, suddenly you cant pretend that you have differentiated opinions or knowledge about clones or such illegal engines. You are in that business for so long now that if you were an expert the several cases wouldnt have happened.

Frank:
Do you believe that in all the other available engines (commercial or not) are only knwoledge of the programmers which wrote the engines?

I think an interesting question for you at the moment.
Means if I read what you answered ... and the interest you have to such a topic.

Rolf:
The ethical question is not so easy to understand. Before I touch something or download it, or sell it, I must have informations, it's not enough that I enjoy a program or have fun.

Frank:
In times I have to worked fast in the past, too many things to do. My advantage in the past was the situation that many people helps me which such things. What I not saw, saw others. And this are the goal for this what I done in the past ... my advantage ... in my back are houndrets of the community.

But of course yes ...
I made mistakes too, for sure !!

Rolf:
That parameter is crap. At first it should be sober. It's already a sin to address yourself to Gian-Carlo as if you were a friend and you tell him that if you liked a clone then why not using it. But then in a kind of remorse you wish him that he has fans who would buy his program inspite the many clones around who cold be stronger and loved by people like you. This is all very confused and typical for the actual madness.

Frank:
The engine from Gian-Carlo was also added on my webpage in the past. Gian gave it to me. Again 2 of 60 = 3,33% are clones. Today not possible to get such a good statistic ... think so.

For your other comments ...
Rolf, thinking on my other posting in this thread.
This is really a topic for you !!!
I would like an other Rolf to see.
And not all the years the same things

Rolf:
BTW Gian-Carlo is the ONLY commercial programmer collegue with a real name who defended or spoke pro Vas when people went on tangents what Vas might have done wrong or not had reacted in time or such nonsense. And you clone seller fan dare to approach him in a tone as if he were one of your kind? That stinks, more so because you think you could - as a clone seller - communicate here as if you were sober. You are not. Like this Norm Schmidt who also sold his own clones.

Frank:
Rolf haut einen raus ...
Die Provokation im Detail ganz am Schluss in bekannt typischer alter Manier
Finde das lustig, habe die ganze Zeit darauf gewartet

Du erinnert ein wenig an die Kriegsführung von Napoleon. Nun ja, die von Alexander dem Großen hat mir besser gefallen und die von den alten Römern war vielleicht die Durchdachteste. Zumidest rennst Du nicht direkt wie von der Tarantel gestochen los, sondern bringst alles zum richtigen Zeitpunkt in der für Dich richtigen Stelle. Das kannst Du ... das ist Deine Welt.

Aber in diese, Deine Welt muss ich mich nicht versetzten Rolf. Genauso wenig wie Du Dich in die Welt der Poster versetzt die Dir antworten denn das interessiert Dich nicht.

OK, alles wird gut

Rolf:
Note that I dont write about you in particular, but you give me the chance to comment on the attitude of several here wh have no ethics who think that they had nothing to hide or to fear, although they support cloning and speak nasty stuff about Vas.

Frank:
Vas or other in his team gave the information RobboLito or Ippolit is a clone. OK Rolf, if RobboLito is a clone of Rybka ... WHY ...

Point 1:
Why display Rybka only a handfull NPS

Point 2:
Why display Rybka a shortcut "Analyse-Main-Line"

Point 3:
Why the programmer of Rybka gave the information:
My program based of GM knowledge if in reality the engine must be a fast searcher.

Such a fast engine like Robbolito ... with so many chess knowledge?
I can't believe it.

But of course all is possible!

Probably true is perhpas that a part of Rybka is cloned. An other part of Rybka 1 seems to be Fruit if I read the messages here. I don't know ...

I am sure Vas will gave us information in detail to a later moment.

Point 4:
Why so big *.exe files.
Users thinking ... so many chess knowledge ... so solowly (NPS) but very strong ?

I am thinking all the time:
The fast seacher forever will have an advantage to engines with knowledge. Here I have in my brain also an interview with Stefan Meyer-Kahlen to this topic in German radio for around 3 years.

Point 5:
If a programmer gave the information:
Your engine is a clone of my engine ... he have to give the profs for it. That the world we life.

On the other hand:
Why RobboLito comes from anonym persons. What Gian-Carlo have wrote is for me also logical and understandable.

Why I should gave profs to annonym persons.

But after all ...
I missed the profs or a clear statement.

I also missed an update for Rybka 3.
Why users have to helps (like Arena developement, official listing of errors) and don't get after so many months an update.

Rolf:
It's so funny. Someone who is pro clone normally couldnt attack Vas who stood under permanent flames as if he were a cloner himself from the beginning of Rybka. Because as Bob always said, you cant have it both ways. Or assumed you were against cloners and attacked Vas in that line, then you cant comment on the actual cloners in a positive manner. You cant have it both ways.

Frank:
Hm ... I never attack Vas in the past.
Hope I understand you ...

YourBrainFunny or not

I made an interview with him, the first in the past.
A lot of mail contacts in times before he go to Convekta / ChessBase. I think Vas go the right way with his marketing. But the question is also ... if Rybka have parts of Fruit are the way totaly wrong.

This can be material for you ...
If ... Rybka is a clone ...

So you can say ... look Frank know that all the time
Hold it in your brain for other discuss with me

Best
Frank

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Terry,

Rolf is harmless!

BTW:
Thinking on lawsuit against my own person.
In the past (or better 10 years computerchess) 14 persons say it 19 times.

I never got one.
The most are other commercials which used things I do

Best
Frank

[Rolf]

The Poll is incredibly silly when you read the assumptions that are being placed against it.

Nothing has been shown or proven against the engine yet a person should feel morally wrong to use it. How very very strange is that?

Let the accusers provide some prove and then ask people how they morally feel.

This is pure hexenjagd based on what?

Actually it's not hexenjagd because in the eyes of decent people someone is guilty who hides behind anonymity in a conflict where already the victim side has made clear that in their view these products are stolen by thieves, not the other way round.

Now we have something where the Wch has spoken and many anonymous creatures are acting accompanied by some writers here. How can even the most famous supporter of the thieves do the magic trick that out of anonymous people something honest could result? How could that be possible? Answer: it isnt possible.

[Terry McCracken]

Hi Terry,

Rolf is harmless!

BTW:
Thinking on lawsuit against my own person.
In the past (or better 10 years computerchess) 14 persons say it 19 times.

I never got one.
The most are other commercials which used things I do

Best
Frank

Rolf is a troll and the noise he makes is deafening, harmless indeed!

Frank, I meant Rolf may be sued by you not the other way round.

I know Rolf has been taken to court at least once, he may not be so lucky the next time.

[Spacious_Mind]

The Poll is incredibly silly when you read the assumptions that are being placed against it.

Nothing has been shown or proven against the engine yet a person should feel morally wrong to use it. How very very strange is that?

Let the accusers provide some prove and then ask people how they morally feel.

This is pure hexenjagd based on what?

Actually it's not hexenjagd because in the eyes of decent people someone is guilty who hides behind anonymity in a conflict where already the victim side has made clear that in their view these products are stolen by thieves, not the other way round.

Now we have something where the Wch has spoken and many anonymous creatures are acting accompanied by some writers here. How can even the most famous supporter of the thieves do the magic trick that out of anonymous people something honest could result? How could that be possible? Answer: it isnt possible.

I just don't think that you can make that assumption. I myself hate my name posted across forums and across the internet. But, people who I trust know my name in this forum as well. Therefore since I value my privacy how can I condemn someone who may value the same.

Besides, a one time statement was made by the Rybka author without follow up. This could mean anything, he could have been lashing out to the shock that someone has a better engine. It could mean that he intends to sue the person. It could also mean a belittlement of the competition. Especially since I see too many people here who will scream foul at his command. He has his purpose.

I hear blanket statement all the time and in the end that is all they are just blanket statements without foundation.

The real fact is the engine is stronger then his versions therefore obviously that is a concern to him. But he needs to take care of that himself and not have other people do the hexenjagd for him.

If, lets assume the program is so much stronger then Rybka current versions. Besides the Rybka author who else should be screaming now? The silence is disturbing.

Best regards

Nick

[Uri Blass]

Uri, the poll has a serious bug. We are asking something that is decisive for a certain I say misbehavior and by definition people who misbehave cant have the freedom to vote in a unprejudiced manner. Because that would mean they admitted their own wrongdoing. For all when the misbehavior normally should have a judicial impact, say a legal punishment somehow. In real life it's the same. You buy a stolen car and are caught while driving it. Then you lose the car and your money plus further fees if you could have known that the car had been stolen. That is the law. And on top of that you have a poll where it's being asked if it's immoral to drive a stolen car. That is really funny. It's a breathtaking show to watch how the illegal side is preserving their lead as if that could finally prove that it cant be illegal to use illegal software. It cant, no? Can it?

I do not see downloading robbolito as buying a stolen car because of the following reason:
Vas is losing nothing from the case that a person download robbolito.
He may lose only if the same person decides not to buy rybka because of downloading robbolito but I guess that it is not the case with many of the people who download robbolito.

Another point is that it can be legal to use illegal software
otherwise even people who buy chess programs can be quilty if in the future it is proved that shredder or hiarcs or naum or rybka are illegal and based on fruit so they needed to be free source(I do not claim that they are based on fruit and my point is that even if one of them is illegal it does not make the people who use it quilty).

Uri

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Terry,

misunderstang (lawsuit) ...
Now it's clear what you mean.

English isn't my first language.

Important for now only ...
Rolf have a little bit to do with a possible answere.
In this time he cann't write other WirrWarr

Such persons like Rolf you can find in all fora.
Why not ... have nothing against Rolf.
A "j"ocularly "j"ourneyman.
A JJ an not a JR


The date: Nov. 26th, 2009
is a good day for Rolf.
Because Rolf like it to discuss with me

Enough, must go to the children.
I am not an uncaring father.

Have a nice evening and regards from Germany.

Best
Frank