I am feeling ill

[Graham Banks]

Graham, if there is no satisfactory explanation from Vas, are there any significant ways in which your views on the issues being discussed will change?

I'm disappointed that Vas has not said more and can therefore understand the suspicions that all is not as he says.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

Graham, if there is no satisfactory explanation from Vas, are there any significant ways in which your views on the issues being discussed will change?

I'm disappointed that Vas has not said more and can therefore understand the suspicions that all is not as he says.

Definitely,his silence is a ? move and not releasing Rybka + is a ?? move form his side....
Dr.D

[K I Hyams]

Graham, if there is no satisfactory explanation from Vas, are there any significant ways in which your views on the issues being discussed will change?

I'm disappointed that Vas has not said more and can therefore understand the suspicions that all is not as he says.

Tord, the author of open source Glaurung, is one who appears to have demonstrated that it is possible to make a cutting edge engine without resorting to excessive use of Fruit code. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I would assume that the programmers of Fritz and Shredder are honest men. If that is the case, unless or until Vas comes up with a satisfactory explanation, I would imagine that they would not be too pleased that money which might have been spent on their products has been diverted elsewhere.

Until now, my attitude has been that the authors of R and I had behaved badly but, like it or not, the engines were out there and no useful purpose was served by pretending that they were not. However, many of us would not dream of downloading software from a warez site. I therefore found it difficult to come up with a satisfactory answer when Ansari questioned whether there was a significant difference between downloading Robb from where it was posted and downloading Rybka 3 from a warez site. I still think it is still an interesting question, but no longer quite so important.

[Rolf]

Tord, the author of open source Glaurung, is one who appears to have demonstrated that it is possible to make a cutting edge engine without resorting to excessive use of Fruit code. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I would assume that the programmers of Fritz and Shredder are honest men. If that is the case, unless or until Vas comes up with a satisfactory explanation

This is not how ethical issues are resolved in the culture I come from. Guilty because of silence and not yet oneself proving innocence. Until that living under suspending honesty. That's more following a lynch court reasoning and madness.

[Rolf]

There are major cases of plagiarism with distinguished faculty as well, so earning a degree from a prestigious university is no guarantee of ethical behaviour. It should plant the seeds for such, but there's no guarantee they will grow.

Did we ever disagree on this one? But again we are not talking about Ted Bundy like massmurder but instead this is here about a "sport" computerchess competition with commercial=professional players.

Bob, did you ever reflect what you are doing with the thousands of helpers on Crafty? Couldnt one call it tolerated "plagiarism" in teamwork? Or I am surprised what you recall from Hsu. Ken helped him and he copied almost all from Belle.

Did you ever study something in the field of psychology of creativity, artists and the growth of ideas? And also this:

We have a clear statement from Vas of Dec, 1st. Where he states that all the code in Rybka is 100% original at the source code level, not counting public-domain snippets like population cnt, etc.

Now show up with your evidence or (how you like to pronounce it in the US) or shut up. Or sue Vas. But you cant continue endlessly in that sort of smear supposition, insinuation, activity in distributed roles. Here a bit moral attack by Theron, there a bit of "virtually" bla by Wegner, for all the support with the many anonymous helpers. What for? Why?

When will you begin to X-ray the new Junior? I read of 100 Elo better in Bullet than the last version. When will you suppose that they had taken from Fruit and Rybka's stolen code? I know that Amir is a very talented programmer, he even played Kasparov (the old friend of yours) for almost 1 million dollars. But why not motivating the mob to examine his creation? I wanted to know on whose shoulders he is standing. Let Wegner do the laborous side of the job, he hasbt anything else of importance to do. If you at least could show a second case besides Rybka, I wouldnt have so many sleepless nights while reflecting about the possible reasons for your late fixation of Rybka. That you are a dedicated fisherman is known since long. BINGO - now I got it. I got it!! You are fishing after Rybka! Admit it.

[K I Hyams]

Tord, the author of open source Glaurung, is one who appears to have demonstrated that it is possible to make a cutting edge engine without resorting to excessive use of Fruit code. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I would assume that the programmers of Fritz and Shredder are honest men. If that is the case, unless or until Vas comes up with a satisfactory explanation

This is not how ethical issues are resolved in the culture I come from. Guilty because of silence and not yet oneself proving innocence. Until that living under suspending honesty. That's more following a lynch court reasoning and madness.

No Rolf. Not "guilty because of silence". Under grave suspicion because of circumstances. Intellectual property that appears to have been used in a manner that contravenes the GPL licence appears to have been found embedded in Rybka. In a UK court, the criteria used for settling civil cases such as this is "the balance of probability". Unless Vas can explain himself, many people will conclude that he would lose a civil case in a UK court.

This is a serious matter for a number of reasons, one of which is that if Vas has infringed the GPL licence, people such as the authors of Fritz and Shredder may have lost part of their income because money which would otherwise have been spent on their products may have been diverted elsewhere. Vas appears to have flatly denied that he has contravened the GPL licence. Such a denial is also a serious matter because it casts aspersions on the judgment and/or motives of other experts.

Shortly before writing this I checked the section of the Rybka site on which Zach posted. At that time and in that section, I saw no comments from Vas that referred to Zach’s post. I am not taking part in a “lynch court”, as you put it. I stated a few days ago that I have had dealings with Vas on an issue unrelated to Rybka. In those dealings, I found him friendly and genuine. I hope that he has a satisfactory explanation for this sad affair.

[Rolf]

I am not taking part in a “lynch court”, as you put it. I stated a few days ago that I have had dealings with Vas on an issue unrelated to Rybka. In those dealings, I found him friendly and genuine. I hope that he has a satisfactory explanation for this sad affair.

You are still obsessed by this silence argument which is not sound BTW. Because someone has not yet or never answered on something Wegner published is open to your pleasure. Do with it what you want but dont claim that this is speaking against someone. You know that I have this specific critic against your idea of such internet forum public lynch justice where you are the questioning attorney in distributed roles of course and then you also are the judge in person who just has to calculate how many have participated in the scapegoat hunt. I suppose that this isnt what you call the UK court system?

I mentioned madness in my last post. For me it's insane to use such design where the attacked is overall a nice guy but does he have a good enough explanation in "this sad affair"? With this sad you underline another time that you are normally on Vasik's side, but unfortunately and sadly and it's almost killing you but you have to do it the other way round. Until Vas wont speak right NOW. At least he should do it. Otherwise you had to use violence? Or whatever, perhaps blackmail? Because this is what happened in this case. How this is done on CCC forum? Well, just open your eyes, it's in distributed roles a hate smear campaign with almost no content but therefore even worse insinuations. And here the repetition is making the deal. He didnt speak. He didnt answer. Bugs are still there. You can continue endlessly. On a forum this is a bully. But in science it's rather pathetic. IMO you must understand that Vas has other things to do than playing ball with the kids on the internet. He made a clear statement that proves that Wegner and Hyatt are totally in the wrong. And without that they show up with their evidence they lost it. Plus the costs for the defamation over years.

You see? I dont hate you. I just oppose your opinions. We are both observers. Other are playing this game. With hopefully serious consequences for some. I'm not supporting to hunt burned-out old ex-talents of computerchess, but I would concentrate on the two academics who are still alive and kicking. Zach, the occasional Blitz Viewer and Quarterback Bob, the undefeated and immovable Icebox who is dominating the whole playing field with permanent frost. Who is the opponent? The defending champion called The Bright Sun! Now you again with the micro. Keith?

[K I Hyams]

You are still obsessed by this silence argument

No Rolf, I am not "still obsessed by this silence argument". The only time that I used the word silence in the post to which you replied was in a quote from you in which you accused me of being obsessed with this "silence argument". I used the quote to deny that I was claiming "guilt because of silence".

[Rolf]

Yes, I knew that but still, perhaps you cant realise it, if you hope for an answer on this sad affair, you are waiting and hoping for something. Because else you could also enjoy the silence. No? But you dont because you think he should say something, right? So, you suffer under the silence, right? Because you fear that it means something, right? --

All I am telling you is this silence doesnt stand for something special. Just that it's not necessary to add something to the clear statement Vas had already given IMO

Rolf

[bob]

Tord, the author of open source Glaurung, is one who appears to have demonstrated that it is possible to make a cutting edge engine without resorting to excessive use of Fruit code. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I would assume that the programmers of Fritz and Shredder are honest men. If that is the case, unless or until Vas comes up with a satisfactory explanation

This is not how ethical issues are resolved in the culture I come from. Guilty because of silence and not yet oneself proving innocence. Until that living under suspending honesty. That's more following a lynch court reasoning and madness.

However, you don't get to "break the silence" by saying "this is my code" but then offering _no_ evidence to support that. That's what I have been waiting for with respect to the robo* situation. If I claim something is a clone of Crafty, which I have done on multiple occasions (Le Petite and Voyager are but two that come to mine) I gave information that could be easily digested and understood to support my claim. If Robo* _is_ a clone, what can it _possibly_ hurt to take excerpts from Rybka's code and compare them to Robo* to prove the similarities? If it _is_ a clone, the code is already exposed, so what is there to lose??? You don't have to publish an entire source program to show parts were copied via reverse-engineering. But you should show _something_ it would seem?