Frayer's opinion expressed at the Rybka forum....

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Albert Silver
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Re: Frayer's opinion expressed at the Rybka forum....

Post by Albert Silver » Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:25 pm

Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:http://www.frayerchess.com/

Well well here you all are. disappointed in your high priest Vasik Rajlich. He stoot on the shoulders of geniuses to develop his program (Rybka), while at the same time jealousy claming any improvements as his personal
intellectual property.
Fat and bloated with success he had no need to fix the bugs in Rybka 3. Keeping you all tagging along like so many puppy dogs trying to be useful to their master.
Now as a clear light of morning comes streaming through the window, only now you see. Greed is the great destroyer of men.
For over 16 months we have been waiting for an update that did not come. Vas made many promises that went unfulfilled. Many of you on this forum contributed to the development of Rybka from its very beginnings. Testing and offering solutions to problems that directly lead to increasing its strenght. We all paid tribute, literally gold from our pockets went into his hands.
The engine chess community put all their eggs in one basket, only to find the entrusted man making deals with his compititors and failing to act upon the consensus of his customers.
My question now is: Shall we stand behind a man we no longer trust to work in our best interests or return to the proven method of scientific development of allowing others to build upon past work.
Should we help protect Vas's profits by yelling "Clone" every time we see a chess engine (RobboLito) that possibly used some of his ideas in its code. Or should we all work together to encourage to build upon his work and continue the advancement of chess programs.
Let us have this debate.

:roll:
Interesting to see a guy supporting the theft of intellectual property, and posting it openly. He suggests encouraging others to steal Vas's work in the name of "progress". You would think Vas had retired and was no longer building upon his own previous work, rather than working day and night like a dog as he is. I guess it isn't surprising. What he really wants is a consensual go-ahead to steal the code and use it himself in his own engine. The obvious clincher is that nowhere does he suggest decompiling and taking code from other engines. I guess progress is only achieved by stealing from Rybka.

All in all, utterly pathetic.
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."

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mariaclara
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Re: Frayer's opinion expressed at the Rybka forum....

Post by mariaclara » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:10 pm

:shock:

Rolf, is it true Vas promised to give the rybka 3+ 16 months ago :?:
In this case the manufacturer said I will fix the problem and then give you a replacement. That was 16 months ago.
.
.

................. Mu Shin ..........................

Albert Silver
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Re: Frayer's opinion expressed at the Rybka forum....

Post by Albert Silver » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:19 pm

mariaclara wrote::shock:

Rolf, is it true Vas promised to give the rybka 3+ 16 months ago :?:
In this case the manufacturer said I will fix the problem and then give you a replacement. That was 16 months ago.
I guess the question is what problem is being referred to. Fixes are promised IF they are considered needed. I, and many many others have been using Rybka 3 until today as the main analysis engine and I haven't had a single issue yet. It isn't as if the engine came out with no improvements either. A 'mere' 100 Elo improvement. Curious how I didnt see anyone demanding Shredder (just as an example) be decompiled and have its secrets shared in the name of progress after Shredder 8 was tested to have a VERY modest improvement over Shredder 7. No screams for money returns, etc. Yes, I think it is VERY telling that Rybka is singled out here and now.

And just an aside regarding Rybka and Fruit, I have asked Ryan about it, being the only other programmer allowed to release official Fruit builds, and he thinks the accusations are crap, and has analyzed the engines in question.

Albert
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."

noctiferus
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Re: Frayer's opinion expressed at the Rybka forum....

Post by noctiferus » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:51 pm

It was promised

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... l?tid=7875
(at least for persistent hash bug, wrong bishop, and some other features. Not for bishop underpromotion, even if in problems and endgame analysis it gives troubles).

According to your statement, they have been considered needed, but we haven't any fix.

Enrico

Spock

Re: Frayer's opinion expressed at the Rybka forum....

Post by Spock » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:28 pm

Well, I disagree completely with Wael on this one. I'd bet that the vast majority of Rybka customers are very happy with what they have, the strongest chess engine in the world by a long shot. Of course it has some bugs, most software does. Nothing to be ashamed of or embarrassed about and despite those bugs it is still the strongest engine out there, and entirely fit for purpose. To call it defective is outrageous. There is some jealousy out there no doubt. Concerning Rybka 3+, well again this is not the first time that, with the best intentions in the world, someone promised something but then had to cancel it. Unfortunate that expectations were raised and then there was disappointment. Get over it. It happens, and often. About the delay with Rybka 4, there is no hurry whatsoever for it, no competitor is even close to Rybka 3 yet.

Concerning the server model: consider some commercial competitors where you have a release, and then nothing for 12 months, and then another release. In the meantime the author is constantly improving it, competing in tournaments with the improved version, and you as a customer just watch in envy and frustration, and can't get your hands on it. Vas has the perfect answer, if you always want the latest and strongest version in between, then it is available to you to run on an external server for a fee. A genuine and excellent attempt to address a gap in the market. I find the criticism of this initiative is totally unwarranted.

To conclude, as a paying customer (I purchased Rybka Aquarium and the Rybka 3 engine from ChessOK at the normal price) I am not dissatisfied with Vas's actions in any way. And I'd bet most customers feel the same. And no, I am not a Rybka "fanboy". Just a happy customer, plain and simple.
Last edited by Spock on Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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michiguel
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Re: Frayer's opinion expressed at the Rybka forum....

Post by michiguel » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:29 pm

There is some strange mob behavior regarding Rybka that is very difficult to understand. Wrong bishop bug? This has been a "feature" in many engines for years.

Miguel

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Harvey Williamson
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Re: Frayer's opinion expressed at the Rybka forum....

Post by Harvey Williamson » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:35 pm

Spock wrote:Well, I disagree completely with Wael on this one. I'd bet that the vast majority of Rybka customers are very happy with what they have, the strongest chess engine in the world by a long shot. Of course it has some bugs, most software does. Nothing to be ashamed of or embarrassed about and despite those bugs it is still the strongest engine out there, and entirely fit for purpose. To call it defective is outrageous. There is some jealousy out there no doubt. Concerning Rybka 3+, well again this is not the first time that, with the best intentions in the world, someone promised something but then had to cancel it. Unfortunate that expectations were raised and then there was disappointment. Get over it. It happens, and often. About the delay with Rybka 4, there is no hurry whatsoever for it, no competitor is even close to Rybka 3 yet.

Concerning the server model: consider some commercial competitors where you have a release, and then nothing for 12 months, and then another release. In the meantime the author is constantly improving it, competing in tournaments with the improved version, and you as a customer just watch in envy and frustration, and can't get your hands on it. Vas has the perfect answer, if you always want the latest and strongest version in between, then it is available to you to run on an external server for a fee. A genuine and excellent attempt to address a gap in the market. I find the criticism of this initiative is totally unwarranted.

To conclude, as a paying customer (I purchased Rybka Aquarium and the Rybka 3 engine from ChessOK at the normal price) I am not dissatisfied with Vas's actions in any way. And I'd bet most customers feel the same. And no, I am not a Rybka "fanboy". Just a happy customer, plain and simple.
As a non-paying customer :) I agree with most of what you say. The fact remains though that Vas promised a bug fix version. If he had not then no problem.

Spock

Re: Frayer's opinion expressed at the Rybka forum....

Post by Spock » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:40 pm

Harvey Williamson wrote: As a non-paying customer :) I agree with most of what you say. The fact remains though that Vas promised a bug fix version. If he had not then no problem.
Understood. But consider this: Last week I promised a colleague that I would help them out with something this week. This week comes along, and I am asked to prepare some information urgently for a board meeting at the end of the week. I have to tell my colleague that I can't fulfill my promise. Does that make me some sort of rogue or villain ? Sometimes promises can't be kept. That's all I'm really saying about that aspect

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Harvey Williamson
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Re: Frayer's opinion expressed at the Rybka forum....

Post by Harvey Williamson » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:42 pm

Spock wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote: As a non-paying customer :) I agree with most of what you say. The fact remains though that Vas promised a bug fix version. If he had not then no problem.
Understood. But consider this: Last week I promised a colleague that I would help them out with something this week. This week comes along, and I am asked to prepare some information urgently for a board meeting at the end of the week. I have to tell my colleague that I can't fulfill my promise. Does that make me some sort of rogue or villain ? Sometimes promises can't be kept. That's all I'm really saying about that aspect
If you were a retailer (and I was a paying customer) and I had been promised a fix I think I would be entitled to a full refund.

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Rolf
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Re: Frayer's opinion expressed at the Rybka forum....

Post by Rolf » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:49 pm

Harvey Williamson wrote: As a non-paying customer :) I agree with most of what you say. The fact remains though that Vas promised a bug fix version. If he had not then no problem.
IMO it's dishonest to deliberately take one aspect out of context and then calling it the absolute offense when in context it would look different. It just doesnt look good that you as a competitor are on such a trip.

You have a chance IMO to clean your name if you exactly show evidence.

1) When was what promised?

2) When exactly came the Strelka smear?

3) Why dont you see any connect between the whole stealing or clone aspect influencing the decisions for Vas?

4) When exactly began the evil campaign against Rybka on CCC by people like Theron, Wegner, Hyatt or Schmidt?

5) Why dont you see any connect between such activities and Vas' business decisions?

6) When exactly the actual anonymous jerks began to blackmail Vas? Why dont you see any connect with Vas' decisions on bugs etc?

7) How would that look iof Hiarcs were chasted like Rybka. Have you not a natural shame as a collegue and competitor of Vas to be more hesitating here in Public? What would you do if you were in focus of the mafia blackmail?

8) Could you swear here that in Hiarcs there is zero from Fruit? Or from any former engine since Hiarcs is now existing? Can you prove it? Please open your source so that this could be researched. It's not against you but it's just for research and progress.

Already many thanks for any reply. BTW you know that this is NOT a message meant to harm you personally. It's just for the purpose to see if you are sober or somewhat bigot because it's not about you and your program.
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz

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