Frayer's opinion expressed at the Rybka forum....

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Harvey Williamson
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Re: Frayer's opinion expressed at the Rybka forum....

Post by Harvey Williamson » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:01 am

bob wrote:Just for the record, you are in a discussion that has no end, and in an argument that will never be resolved.
I completely agree.

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slobo
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Re: Frayer's opinion expressed at the Rybka forum....

Post by slobo » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:26 am

Rolf wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote: What has any of this got to do with the fact that Vas promised a bugfix for R3 to his customers. Have I posted anywhere my opinion on the Strelka debate? I do not think so.
Excuse me if I give you a little lecture but it seems that you didnt know it. We humans are no machines and new events do have influence on our plans and promisses. As a competitor I expected a bit more decency of you and that you tried to put yourself into Vas' situation. (...)

But perhaps you begin to understand that it's always good if you think about your steps. Before you shout BUT HE PROMISED next time you analyse what he could possibly do after the crimes began.
Have a look who talks about decency,
a fellow for whom giving a word (promise) has not any meaning;
a fellow who sees crime where there is no any proof, except a word of his fellow friend.
"Well, I´m just a soul whose intentions are good,
Oh Lord, please don´t let me be misunderstood."

Albert Silver
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Re: Frayer's opinion expressed at the Rybka forum....

Post by Albert Silver » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:44 pm

Harvey Williamson wrote:
Spock wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote: As a non-paying customer :) I agree with most of what you say. The fact remains though that Vas promised a bug fix version. If he had not then no problem.
Understood. But consider this: Last week I promised a colleague that I would help them out with something this week. This week comes along, and I am asked to prepare some information urgently for a board meeting at the end of the week. I have to tell my colleague that I can't fulfill my promise. Does that make me some sort of rogue or villain ? Sometimes promises can't be kept. That's all I'm really saying about that aspect
If you were a retailer (and I was a paying customer) and I had been promised a fix I think I would be entitled to a full refund.
I agree. Send an e-mail telling him you are irremediably unsatisfied and want a refund. Explain that you will delete all copies of Rybka and related software from your computer(s) and will no longer make use of them, and I am sure he will honor your wishes. This is a good plan too. There have been many bugs in many engines over the past, some for which I paid well $100 to $200, and which I no longer use. Junior 6 (ex no.1) with its bugs is an example. A few Fritzes, and a Shredder or two. Would have to check if Hiarcs qualifies too. All in all buggy software I want my money back for. Sure they were the very best engines in their heydey, but god knows without those bugs they might have a half an elo point more, and my analysis would have led me to riches unbespoken. In exchange for all these ripoffs by Fritz, Junior, Shredder, and other engines, I think I am entitled to decompile Rybka so that I can finally progress.

Hmmm.... I'm feeling better by the minute.

"Dear Chessbase,

Your engine's bugs have led me to mediocrity and poverty, and I demand my money back. I have come to this conclusion after deep thought and Knightstalker is an engine with dreadful bugs. Please note its opening bugs prevent it from playing the Sicilian Najdorf as any non-buggy GM knows. Furthermore, the advertisement promised me it was the perfect analysis companion, and clearly this is a lie. There is nothing perfect about it. I want a refund.

Sour grapely and full-of-itly yours,"

Albert
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."

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Re: Frayer's opinion expressed at the Rybka forum....

Post by Albert Silver » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:59 pm

Frayer wrote:Is the Cult of Vas Crumbling
Cult? What cult? The guy is a programmer, albeit a brilliant one, and wrote the best chess engine there is. I use it because it is the best. Period. Not because of any cult. If Fritz were to come out with some superduper engine that clobbered everything around, it would become my main engine.
To the gentleman that has said I am advocating the theft of Vasik Rajlich property, I would remind him that much has be written on this very forum in regards to how much Vas plagiarized the work of programmers that came before him.
Yes, contrary to many who enjoy writing and writing and writing, I asked the highest Fruit authority in these forums (barring Fabien), and he has looked at the evidence closely and said the accusations were pure crap. So, when you consider he is an eminently qualified programmer, is the only one authorized to release builds of Fruit, and has analyzed in detail the evidence, and concluded the accusations were unfounded, I am inclined to believe him over the endless posts in these forums.
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."

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Re: Frayer's opinion expressed at the Rybka forum....

Post by bob » Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:53 pm

Albert Silver wrote:
Frayer wrote:Is the Cult of Vas Crumbling
Cult? What cult? The guy is a programmer, albeit a brilliant one, and wrote the best chess engine there is. I use it because it is the best. Period. Not because of any cult. If Fritz were to come out with some superduper engine that clobbered everything around, it would become my main engine.
To the gentleman that has said I am advocating the theft of Vasik Rajlich property, I would remind him that much has be written on this very forum in regards to how much Vas plagiarized the work of programmers that came before him.
Yes, contrary to many who enjoy writing and writing and writing, I asked the highest Fruit authority in these forums (barring Fabien), and he has looked at the evidence closely and said the accusations were pure crap. So, when you consider he is an eminently qualified programmer, is the only one authorized to release builds of Fruit, and has analyzed in detail the evidence, and concluded the accusations were unfounded, I am inclined to believe him over the endless posts in these forums.
Sorry, but that is pure garbage. You don't need to be the author of program X to be qualified to determine if someone copied pieces of X, any more than you need to be the author of a book to be qualified to determine if someone copied parts of it.

That argument won't cut it in a technical discussion with people who know what they are doing.

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Re: Frayer's opinion expressed at the Rybka forum....

Post by Albert Silver » Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:26 pm

bob wrote:
Albert Silver wrote:
Frayer wrote:Is the Cult of Vas Crumbling
Cult? What cult? The guy is a programmer, albeit a brilliant one, and wrote the best chess engine there is. I use it because it is the best. Period. Not because of any cult. If Fritz were to come out with some superduper engine that clobbered everything around, it would become my main engine.
To the gentleman that has said I am advocating the theft of Vasik Rajlich property, I would remind him that much has be written on this very forum in regards to how much Vas plagiarized the work of programmers that came before him.
Yes, contrary to many who enjoy writing and writing and writing, I asked the highest Fruit authority in these forums (barring Fabien), and he has looked at the evidence closely and said the accusations were pure crap. So, when you consider he is an eminently qualified programmer, is the only one authorized to release builds of Fruit, and has analyzed in detail the evidence, and concluded the accusations were unfounded, I am inclined to believe him over the endless posts in these forums.
Sorry, but that is pure garbage. You don't need to be the author of program X to be qualified to determine if someone copied pieces of X, any more than you need to be the author of a book to be qualified to determine if someone copied parts of it.

That argument won't cut it in a technical discussion with people who know what they are doing.
So you are claiming that when discussing the merits of whether or not Rybka is in fact a much plagiarized clone of Fruit, he and Fabien don't know what they are talking about? Astonishing.
Last edited by Albert Silver on Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: Frayer's opinion expressed at the Rybka forum....

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:28 pm

Spock wrote:Well, I disagree completely with Wael on this one. I'd bet that the vast majority of Rybka customers are very happy with what they have, the strongest chess engine in the world by a long shot. Of course it has some bugs, most software does. Nothing to be ashamed of or embarrassed about and despite those bugs it is still the strongest engine out there, and entirely fit for purpose. To call it defective is outrageous. There is some jealousy out there no doubt. Concerning Rybka 3+, well again this is not the first time that, with the best intentions in the world, someone promised something but then had to cancel it. Unfortunate that expectations were raised and then there was disappointment. Get over it. It happens, and often. About the delay with Rybka 4, there is no hurry whatsoever for it, no competitor is even close to Rybka 3 yet.

Concerning the server model: consider some commercial competitors where you have a release, and then nothing for 12 months, and then another release. In the meantime the author is constantly improving it, competing in tournaments with the improved version, and you as a customer just watch in envy and frustration, and can't get your hands on it. Vas has the perfect answer, if you always want the latest and strongest version in between, then it is available to you to run on an external server for a fee. A genuine and excellent attempt to address a gap in the market. I find the criticism of this initiative is totally unwarranted.

To conclude, as a paying customer (I purchased Rybka Aquarium and the Rybka 3 engine from ChessOK at the normal price) I am not dissatisfied with Vas's actions in any way. And I'd bet most customers feel the same. And no, I am not a Rybka "fanboy". Just a happy customer, plain and simple.
And how would you know that I am wondering :!: :?:
Afew questions:
_Will Vas provide you with the version of the engine you're going to rent online :!: :?:
_Will you know for sure that it's the latest and the greatest :!: :?: I mean he could put up a version with a differently tuned evaluation that will appear as the latest version,something like Rybka Dynamic and Human....

And don't tell me that you're taking his words for granted,we already saw this with the Rybka 3+ issue....
Online medical consultations coming soon regards,
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

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Re: Frayer's opinion expressed at the Rybka forum....

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:34 pm

Rolf wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote: What has any of this got to do with the fact that Vas promised a bugfix for R3 to his customers. Have I posted anywhere my opinion on the Strelka debate? I do not think so.
Excuse me if I give you a little lecture but it seems that you didnt know it. We humans are no machines and new events do have influence on our plans and promisses. As a competitor I expected a bit more decency of you and that you tried to put yourself into Vas' situation. Dont you have no moral above being a competitor in computerchess business?

You must not know such details but I asked comrade Bob the same question. In science it is highly important to see the context and not only seperated little details. Only with the context you can make evaluations. A mere beancounter machine like researches is a blind duck but not a wise man. Because the details could speak for this or that, depending of what you want to prove.

But perhaps you begin to understand that it's always good if you think about your steps. Before you shout BUT HE PROMISED next time you analyse what he could possibly do after the crimes began.
So even when your prophet has lied to the customers you still find a way to poll out a decent defence in front of all the CCC members :?:
I've seen a lot and I mean a lot of brain washes but I've never encountered such a brain wash related to the Rybka sect :shock:
Dr.D
Last edited by Dr.Wael Deeb on Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Frayer's opinion expressed at the Rybka forum....

Post by Milos » Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:36 pm

Albert Silver wrote:So you are claiming that when discussing the merits of whether or not Rybka is in fact a much plagiarized clone of Fruit, he and Fabien don't know what they are talking about? Astonishing.
I am claiming that either you or Ryan is lying. As simple as that.

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Re: Frayer's opinion expressed at the Rybka forum....

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:38 pm

Graham Banks wrote:
Frayer wrote:Lets kick him to the side of the road and make way for others to carry the torch.
A few people here need kicking to the side of the road. :wink:
:lol:
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

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