Frayer's opinion expressed at the Rybka forum....

[Milos]

Yes, but why would you want to argue with them?

You are right, good point.

[bigo]

Personally I'm not so disappointed in Vas not releasing Rybka3+ then in this online Rybka thing which I think is total crap. Commercial Programmers have been accepting Pirating for as long as there has been computer chess, it is as a unfortunate reality they have to accept, you can't have your cake and eat it too. It's not right but it's a reality.

[bob]

Is the Cult of Vas Crumbling

Cult? What cult? The guy is a programmer, albeit a brilliant one, and wrote the best chess engine there is. I use it because it is the best. Period. Not because of any cult. If Fritz were to come out with some superduper engine that clobbered everything around, it would become my main engine.

To the gentleman that has said I am advocating the theft of Vasik Rajlich property, I would remind him that much has be written on this very forum in regards to how much Vas plagiarized the work of programmers that came before him.

Yes, contrary to many who enjoy writing and writing and writing, I asked the highest Fruit authority in these forums (barring Fabien), and he has looked at the evidence closely and said the accusations were pure crap. So, when you consider he is an eminently qualified programmer, is the only one authorized to release builds of Fruit, and has analyzed in detail the evidence, and concluded the accusations were unfounded, I am inclined to believe him over the endless posts in these forums.

Sorry, but that is pure garbage. You don't need to be the author of program X to be qualified to determine if someone copied pieces of X, any more than you need to be the author of a book to be qualified to determine if someone copied parts of it.

That argument won't cut it in a technical discussion with people who know what they are doing.

So you are claiming that when discussing the merits of whether or not Rybka is in fact a much plagiarized clone of Fruit, he and Fabien don't know what they are talking about? Astonishing.

If they are saying they see no fruit code in strelka, or if they have disassembled Rybka 1 and see no fruit code there, then _that_ would be astonishing. Fabien has not said there is no Fruit in Rybka. He has said he doesn't care.

The discussion is not about Strelka. I have no idea why you brought it up.

Please follow the discussion. This problem came to light because of the following actions:

(1) strelka reverse-engineered from Rybka according to author of Strelka.

(2) Vas concurs and initially claims Strelka as his own code. He later discovers that there was code added by the author of Strelka, which makes it impossible to claim "in toto" so he backs off of that claim, although still stating that most of Strelka is reverse-engineered from Rybka.

[that gives a direct tie between Rybka -> Strelka -> Rybka]

(3) someone (not sure who) initially noticed that there were marked similarities between Strelka and Fruit. Further analysis by several confirmed this.

[that gives a direct tie between Fruit -> strelka -> Rybka]

So Strelka has been in this discussion from the get-go, even though some would like to pretend it has not. Later direct analysis (via disassembly of Rybka) showed that Strelka and Fruit do have similarities with Rybka 1. This was done when the howl of protests started that we could not be sure that Strelka really looked like Rybka.

[that gives a direct tie between fruit -> Rybka]

That's where things stand on that front. If Ryan says he sees no similarities, he is simply not looking at the same things we have looked at. Fabien simply said "I do not care, this code is not handled by FSF because of the GPL."

[bob]

Can we actually resolve this issue rather then hitting a brick wall with the same nonsense and creating a thread about this every day Going round in circles like a dog chasing its tail for 2years now.

This has been quite similar to the Tiger Woods fiasco. He originally claimed that nothing unusual was going on, then today admitted to marital infidelity. had he done so initially, it would have been a much smaller note in sports news. As it is, it has dragged on for several days and no end is yet in sight. This could have been addressed by Vas on two occasions. Initially with the fruit/strelka/rybka issue, and now with the rybka/Robo* issue. Denying everything, or remaining mum after making the claim about Robo* has kept the story alive far longer than it deserved. Ultimately, the fault lies with Vas and how he chose to handle this. Only he can clear it up. Or he can let the speculation continue about Robo, and deal with the repercussions that appear to be in no danger of dying out, since as moderators, we have been handling this issue since we first took office.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

Personally I'm not so disappointed in Vas not releasing Rybka3+ then in this online Rybka thing which I think is total crap. Commercial Programmers have been accepting Pirating for as long as there has been computer chess, it is as a unfortunate reality they have to accept, you can't have your cake and eat it too. It's not right but it's a reality.

Piracy isn't the main reason for this online approach....Vasik has lived with the Rybka 3 piracy and earned good....his current behaviour is related to the latest Rybka's performance....something had appeared,stolen or not,that is 70 Elo better than Rybka 3 so to keep the pace he got to poll out something that is at least 30-50 Elo better...that translates to a 100-120 Elo over Rybka 3 which appearantly is not affordable yet,hence the online retal system and the total crap that you mentioned
Dr.D

[Rolf]

So you are claiming that when discussing the merits of whether or not Rybka is in fact a much plagiarized clone of Fruit, he and Fabien don't know what they are talking about? Astonishing.

If they are saying they see no fruit code in strelka, or if they have disassembled Rybka 1 and see no fruit code there, then _that_ would be astonishing. Fabien has not said there is no Fruit in Rybka. He has said he doesn't care.

With that statement you confound what Fabien had answered Corbit. Dann showed him code and he saw no indication for his own code in there. And he told him so. What you say leaves open the possibility that he sw something but didnt care. But that is not what happened. So, in a way you tweak the historical truth of what happened between Corbit and Letouzy. But Dann can certainly speak for himself. At the time I read him as if he had contacted Fabien to find out if something were fishy but he came back and could say "negative". That's the truth IMO.

[Rolf]

Can we actually resolve this issue rather then hitting a brick wall with the same nonsense and creating a thread about this every day Going round in circles like a dog chasing its tail for 2years now.

This has been quite similar to the Tiger Woods fiasco. He originally claimed that nothing unusual was going on, then today admitted to marital infidelity. had he done so initially, it would have been a much smaller note in sports news. As it is, it has dragged on for several days and no end is yet in sight. This could have been addressed by Vas on two occasions. Initially with the fruit/strelka/rybka issue, and now with the rybka/Robo* issue. Denying everything, or remaining mum after making the claim about Robo* has kept the story alive far longer than it deserved. Ultimately, the fault lies with Vas and how he chose to handle this. Only he can clear it up. Or he can let the speculation continue about Robo, and deal with the repercussions that appear to be in no danger of dying out, since as moderators, we have been handling this issue since we first took office.

It's beyond me what you have in mind. Look, I dont ask you why you like gambling too but you are now psychologizing Vas as if you were his father or uncle. I thought you were a programmer but where did you learn the expertise how someone must present himself in public? IMO, and this is absolutely clear, Vas has really the flair of a wise man who has himself under control, you are different. You are much more emotional and get emotionally upset. Not that I wouldnt like your nature but Vas is just looking more matured. Lately you changed that dramatically. Now you show also better control. But Vas had it from his first appearance on. He never attacked other people, not to speak of collegues.

In our case here please not that people like Jon Dart, Gian-Carlo and now Al are all thinking that Vas is ok with Rybka and that they trust him. You cant just skip that. They have a good name.

To the whole smear with "Osipov" and Strelka I comment in other messages. Unbelievable for a scientist like you that you trust a O. anything at all.

[bob]

So you are claiming that when discussing the merits of whether or not Rybka is in fact a much plagiarized clone of Fruit, he and Fabien don't know what they are talking about? Astonishing.

If they are saying they see no fruit code in strelka, or if they have disassembled Rybka 1 and see no fruit code there, then _that_ would be astonishing. Fabien has not said there is no Fruit in Rybka. He has said he doesn't care.

With that statement you confound what Fabien had answered Corbit. Dann showed him code and he saw no indication for his own code in there. And he told him so. What you say leaves open the possibility that he sw something but didnt care. But that is not what happened. So, in a way you tweak the historical truth of what happened between Corbit and Letouzy. But Dann can certainly speak for himself. At the time I read him as if he had contacted Fabien to find out if something were fishy but he came back and could say "negative". That's the truth IMO.

That is certainly "a version". Whether it is "the version" or not is unknown. Comparing a program to a reverse-engineered program is non trivial, and a quick-and-dirty look would likely conclude "two different programs here". Students rely on that, in fact. But more careful analysis will see thru the intentional (or unintentional in the case of reverse-engineering) obfuscation and reach the truth.

[bob]

Can we actually resolve this issue rather then hitting a brick wall with the same nonsense and creating a thread about this every day Going round in circles like a dog chasing its tail for 2years now.

This has been quite similar to the Tiger Woods fiasco. He originally claimed that nothing unusual was going on, then today admitted to marital infidelity. had he done so initially, it would have been a much smaller note in sports news. As it is, it has dragged on for several days and no end is yet in sight. This could have been addressed by Vas on two occasions. Initially with the fruit/strelka/rybka issue, and now with the rybka/Robo* issue. Denying everything, or remaining mum after making the claim about Robo* has kept the story alive far longer than it deserved. Ultimately, the fault lies with Vas and how he chose to handle this. Only he can clear it up. Or he can let the speculation continue about Robo, and deal with the repercussions that appear to be in no danger of dying out, since as moderators, we have been handling this issue since we first took office.

It's beyond me what you have in mind. Look, I dont ask you why you like gambling too but you are now psychologizing Vas as if you were his father or uncle.

Please show me one sentence in the above that is about psychoanalyzing Vas or anyone else?

I thought you were a programmer but where did you learn the expertise how someone must present himself in public? IMO, and this is absolutely clear, Vas has really the flair of a wise man who has himself under control, you are different. You are much more emotional and get emotionally upset. Not that I wouldnt like your nature but Vas is just looking more matured. Lately you changed that dramatically. Now you show also better control. But Vas had it from his first appearance on. He never attacked other people, not to speak of collegues.

I have not attacked Vas one time. I have attacked what he did as being clearly wrong by any standards I consider reasonable. There is a difference between in control, and sticking your head in the sand and hoping something will go away. I know what I would do were it me. I've already explained. This could all stop with some answers. Remember, _I_ am not the one continually asking the questions and bring this back up. I just reply when someone provides misinformation during the recurring discussions about these two issues.

In our case here please not that people like Jon Dart, Gian-Carlo and now Al are all thinking that Vas is ok with Rybka and that they trust him. You cant just skip that. They have a good name.

To the whole smear with "Osipov" and Strelka I comment in other messages. Unbelievable for a scientist like you that you trust a O. anything at all.

Where am I trusting Osipov? I am looking at the code he released, which I can trust since I understand C. I've not read one comment by him or communicated with him in any way that I can recall. So far as I am concerned, he is not a part of this beyond being the person that released the version of Strelka that started this mess originally.

[Rolf]

Can we actually resolve this issue rather then hitting a brick wall with the same nonsense and creating a thread about this every day Going round in circles like a dog chasing its tail for 2years now.

This has been quite similar to the Tiger Woods fiasco. He originally claimed that nothing unusual was going on, then today admitted to marital infidelity. had he done so initially, it would have been a much smaller note in sports news. As it is, it has dragged on for several days and no end is yet in sight. This could have been addressed by Vas on two occasions. Initially with the fruit/strelka/rybka issue, and now with the rybka/Robo* issue. Denying everything, or remaining mum after making the claim about Robo* has kept the story alive far longer than it deserved. Ultimately, the fault lies with Vas and how he chose to handle this. Only he can clear it up. Or he can let the speculation continue about Robo, and deal with the repercussions that appear to be in no danger of dying out, since as moderators, we have been handling this issue since we first took office.

It's beyond me what you have in mind. Look, I dont ask you why you like gambling too but you are now psychologizing Vas as if you were his father or uncle.

Please show me one sentence in the above that is about psychoanalyzing Vas or anyone else?

Take the whole paragraphe about Tiger Woods. By metapher you insinuate that Vas might have similar problems at home. But that is poor guessing.

How do you know what for someone else is the right time?

He kept mum.

But when he wanted to talk to you you had no 15 minutes.

The same with the Strelka claim. How do you know why Vas had said what. Since he said that no decent tester ever tested seriously this thing.

The same with the clone claim. Since he said that, no decent tester ever tested this thing and on Playchess it's banned.

Not a bad performance with only claiming something without any proof!

Now what was the problem?