Doom for Commercial Chess Softaware Unless...

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Milos,

that was a normal replay by Albert. Reviews of commercial products are helpful for a lot of people, not all are experts.

Commercial and free products should be to complement. To hold the flag with a commercial or free product only, isn't a right and good way for an editor.

All of us each all others.
More or less, we are a big family.

I am sure Albert don't have in his brain to start a commercial campaign. Unfortunately, many others started commercial or free products campaingn in the past. This is boring for readers, not helpful for the community and should be corrected by a moderation from a computer chess forum.

I think you see with Albert the wrong Quarry.
Perhaps your interest goes to free products?

This is OK but please ...
Let the others do his work.

To Albert:
Keep up your good work. I am one of your readers since many years.

Best
Frank

[fern]

Precisely. Now imagine that same CM, but with a more powerful engine AND and even better -no so Boyish- GUI and you get my point.
A mix of CM, Chessbase, databases and even some pretty ladies undressing as our score mount, but going out if we go down.
If you resist until move 40, they get naked for good.

Fern

[fern]

Why? Even if Albert is doing some advertisement, that is not a sin. Advertising you can see and information from the point of view of a customer. And IF Albert was doing such a thing, it would be more credible to me that if made by an unknown writer.
I want to know what do we have, what we can get and what do already have and we not remember to use, as happens to me with the CB site at which I can go but IO forget to do it.
Albert has reminded me about that.

My best
Fern

[kingliveson]

Obviously, the value will vary a lot according to the wants and needs of the user, but the plain Fritz 12, Rybka, and Shredder, in the Chessbase packages, offer a lot of value IMHO. There is a slightly hidden element that many people overlook which is what makes it such a good deal: a Premium subscription to Playchess.

Feel free to take this with a grain of salt coming from my lips, since I've been writing articles on this very recently for them, but I still believe it. The Fritz GUI itself is very nice of course, and I won't get into that, but with a Premium account on Playchess, you get more than simply a normal account to play chess on their server.

They run simuls, lectures/classes, and provide live multimedia commentary on major events such as the current Anand-Topalov. The last two rounds were commented by GM Seirawan in English (they had someone else doing it in German). Even if you miss it live, it remains recorded on the server to be replayed whenever you like. You get this for major tournaments, and then there are the lectures on openings, or famous games that take place several times a week in both English and German. As far as I'm concerned, this is really good value for the buck.

I'm publicly asking moderation to remove quoted (and this) post, since it's violating the charter:

Once a member gains access to the message board, he may read all messages and post new or response messages with the proviso that these new or response messages:
4. Are not flagrant commercial exhortations

You are hopelessly confused it seems. This would never qualify as such. This is a logical reply to Fernando's post, much more than the string of replies on Firebird settings which have nothing to do with the thread's premise.

I do not have enough legal background on talkchess.com policies to decide whether or not the above comments violates the charter. On the surface of it though, being that you are affiliated with the company, and now it seems you may be promoting its products and services--one could make a case for conflict of interest. In all sincerity and honesty, it does read across as promotion because it is not coming from a customer, but rather one affiliated with the company. It would be prudent to recuse yourself in the future to avoid allegation of flagrant commercial exhortations.

[sockmonkey]

I think it's ok, personally. Albert could have made a slightly bigger deal out of the fact that he's doing some writing work for CB, but I think he was really just expressing his personal opinions.

Jeremy

[Sylwy]

For sure the best selling program in the world is ChessMaster.
It's about 1000 Elo weaker than the strongest programs.
Nobody cares.

Being serious ,

Most of people loving chess aren't interested at all in extreme chess engines. This is a competition among the best in chess programming area.Just a curiosity about the limits of perfection in chess. A human never can be able to play at this level !
Maybe some GMs and IMs are also interested in extreme chess engines for the analysis of their games. Intricate analysis features ( IDeeA) , sophisticated databases features aren't of great interest.
I'm not a programmer but a normal chess player. Yes , I love a nice GUI with a medium strong engine , tutorials , a lot of levels of play. That's because Chessmaster series was and is a good affair ! I'm not interested in clusters and quads for running a chess engine.
The native talent never can be substituted by the use of sophisticated chess tools. Chessmaster , Chessimo are enough to play a good chess. I see on playchess.com ( and not only- ICC , instantchess...... ) a lot of bigots using for training expensive chess softs, human trainers & so on and playing a weak chess ! Hilarious ! Money can't buy talent. Never !
I prefer to use always a very simplistic GUI - Zarkov 4.10 Aegon (1999) but a great simulation of expert/master level !

Regards,
Silvian

[mariaclara]

Hi Franklin T,

well Albert didn't say "buy CB".

or did he.

Obviously, the value will vary a lot according to the wants and needs of the user, but the plain Fritz 12, Rybka, and Shredder, in the Chessbase packages, offer a lot of value IMHO. There is a slightly hidden element that many people overlook which is what makes it such a good deal: a Premium subscription to Playchess.

Feel free to take this with a grain of salt coming from my lips, since I've been writing articles on this very recently for them, but I still believe it. The Fritz GUI itself is very nice of course, and I won't get into that, but with a Premium account on Playchess, you get more than simply a normal account to play chess on their server.

They run simuls, lectures/classes, and provide live multimedia commentary on major events such as the current Anand-Topalov. The last two rounds were commented by GM Seirawan in English (they had someone else doing it in German). Even if you miss it live, it remains recorded on the server to be replayed whenever you like. You get this for major tournaments, and then there are the lectures on openings, or famous games that take place several times a week in both English and German. As far as I'm concerned, this is really good value for the buck.

I'm publicly asking moderation to remove quoted (and this) post, since it's violating the charter:

Once a member gains access to the message board, he may read all messages and post new or response messages with the proviso that these new or response messages:
4. Are not flagrant commercial exhortations

You are hopelessly confused it seems. This would never qualify as such. This is a logical reply to Fernando's post, much more than the string of replies on Firebird settings which have nothing to do with the thread's premise.

I do not have enough legal background on talkchess.com policies to decide whether or not the above comments violates the charter. On the surface of it though, being that you are affiliated with the company, and now it seems you may be promoting its products and services--one could make a case for conflict of interest. In all sincerity and honesty, it does read across as promotion because it is not coming from a customer, but rather one affiliated with the company. It would be prudent to recuse yourself in the future to avoid allegation of flagrant commercial exhortations.

[Albert Silver]

I think it's ok, personally. Albert could have made a slightly bigger deal out of the fact that he's doing some writing work for CB, but I think he was really just expressing his personal opinions.

Jeremy

Thanks, because that really was what it was about.

I mentioned my writing for CB, as a gesture of forthcomingness and honesty. There isn't much to make about it really. I've written a bunch of tournament reports, such as on Linares, and the European Championship, and a couple of software how-to articles. I never made big money working for Convekta, and I'm certainly not making any big money here. The key motivator is that I'm a chess junkie.

Anyhow, getting back to the subject, the point was that Fernando was complaining about value in a chess program/package, as opposed to being only about the engine. His mention of CM was highlighted by the perks the program brought him. Notably a ton of beginner courses, etc. that in his opinion bring value to the product, making it worth his money. The Fritz 12 package also has a bunch of multimedia tutorials, on both the program *and* chess, which are fine, but frankly, aren't what would motivate me to buy it. This is why I didn't bother even mentioning them, and even commented it depended on what someone was looking for. Even playing on Playchess itself, while nice, isn't a clincher, but that is just me. There are other excellent playing sites with nice interfaces. For me, personally, what sets it apart and makes this a good deal, is the Premium subscription. As a chess-player and fan, I think the streaming GM commentary of World Championship games and top international tournaments is incredibly cool. They move the pieces, will listen to and answer typed questions, and use arrows to help highlight the plans. I've paid good money for this sort of thing in the past at live venues. If you miss it because you work or are in the wrong time zone, it is recorded exactly as it happened. Add to this, weekly lectures on openings, strategy, and even simuls (if that interests you), for an entire year, and *I* think that is good value.

Again, this is in answer to Fernando's comment on added value to a chess package, beyond the mere engine. We are talking about what motivates one to *buy* commercial products, right?

Just my two cents.

Albert

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

Is the knight/bishop values at default 325 ?
Interesting to note -- I wonder if the improvement is mainly due to increasing the power of the pawn relative to the bishop/knight -- that is if you use 325 then it is only 2.7 pawns .. --

I wonder if decreasing the values of rook and queen a bit will change anything ..

Yes,they use their default vlaues
You can experiment with these settings as you wish and I'll be more than happy if you squeeze a bit more Elo from there....
Dr.D

P.S.As I wrote above,this personality tops my rating list yet waiting for someone to surpass it....

[muxecoid]

....unless they can give to us a phenomenal better GUI and services package. With monster like robolito and others of the same class, who need a new Shredder or even Hiarcs, for God sake?
But of course if you give a very strong engine -even if it is not the strongest- AND a package full of frills, services, databases, tutorials etc, Chessmaster class but 5 times better, then surely I will purchase.
The times for just-the-engine.get-the-gui-elsewhere are dead.

I have been preaching this since 5 years at least and nobody gave me the due reason I have regards...

Fern

Obviously, the value will vary a lot according to the wants and needs of the user, but the plain Fritz 12, Rybka, and Shredder, in the Chessbase packages, offer a lot of value IMHO. There is a slightly hidden element that many people overlook which is what makes it such a good deal: a Premium subscription to Playchess.

Feel free to take this with a grain of salt coming from my lips, since I've been writing articles on this very recently for them, but I still believe it. The Fritz GUI itself is very nice of course, and I won't get into that, but with a Premium account on Playchess, you get more than simply a normal account to play chess on their server.

They run simuls, lectures/classes, and provide live multimedia commentary on major events such as the current Anand-Topalov. The last two rounds were commented by GM Seirawan in English (they had someone else doing it in German). Even if you miss it live, it remains recorded on the server to be replayed whenever you like. You get this for major tournaments, and then there are the lectures on openings, or famous games that take place several times a week in both English and German. As far as I'm concerned, this is really good value for the buck.

Agreed.

I'd rather pay for ICC membership than pay for Rybka.

Even the number 20 in engine rating list is strong enough for most chess players. And so not forget that most players are casual players.