I did not see horizon effect moves for a long time. Do you have any exmples?Graham Banks wrote:The horizon effect is still a problem,
Have we hit a wall on chess software after Rybka 4 came out?
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Re: Have we hit a wall on chess software after Rybka 4 came
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Re: Have we hit a wall on chess software after Rybka 4 came
Not offhand, no, but I'm referring to short term plans backfiring in the long term more than anything.Alexander Schmidt wrote:I did not see horizon effect moves for a long time. Do you have any exmples?Graham Banks wrote:The horizon effect is still a problem,
Cheers,
Graham.
gbanksnz at gmail.com
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Re: Have we hit a wall on chess software after Rybka 4 came
That's no horizon effect.Graham Banks wrote:Not offhand, no, but I'm referring to short term plans backfiring in the long term more than anything.Alexander Schmidt wrote:I did not see horizon effect moves for a long time. Do you have any exmples?Graham Banks wrote:The horizon effect is still a problem,
Cheers,
Graham.
Don't talk about things you don't understand.
Horizon effect is for example if a computer gives away a pawn for nothing to move a forced piece loss behind the search horizon (maybe compareable with sacrifices to delay a mate). Modern programs usually are able to avoid such stupid moves this with their large extensions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_effect
Last edited by Alexander Schmidt on Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Have we hit a wall on chess software after Rybka 4 came
In 99% of cases yes, but there are still occasions where the horizon effect occurs.Alexander Schmidt wrote: Horizon effect is for example if a computer gives away a pawn for nothing to move a forced piece loss behind the search horizon. Modern programs usually are able to see this with their large extensions
gbanksnz at gmail.com
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Re: Have we hit a wall on chess software after Rybka 4 came
I was explaining the horizon effect. Its like I said in 100% of the cases. What you are talking about is no horizon effect.Graham Banks wrote:In 99% of cases yes, but there are still occasions where the horizon effect occurs.
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Re: Have we hit a wall on chess software after Rybka 4 came
Misunderstanding of English. I meant that there are still occasions where the horizon effect (as defined in your link) occurs.Alexander Schmidt wrote:I was explaining the horizon effect. Its like I said in 100% of the cases. What you are talking about is no horizon effect.Graham Banks wrote:In 99% of cases yes, but there are still occasions where the horizon effect occurs.
Somebody might be able to come up with some examples more quickly than I can.
Cheers,
Graham.
gbanksnz at gmail.com
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Re: Have we hit a wall on chess software after Rybka 4 came
Horizon effect moves are covered by extensions in top programs. I did not see horizon effect moves since years, not even by weaker engines.Graham Banks wrote:Misunderstanding of English. I meant that there are still occasions where the horizon effect (as defined in your link) occurs.
Somebody might be able to come up with some examples more quickly than I can.
It should be easy for you to show some of this moves you are talking about. No need to hurry. I can wait some weeks. I will remind you
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Re: Have we hit a wall on chess software after Rybka 4 came
So you agree that it isn't the quality Vas time of 2 years work, put into Rybka 4?Albert Silver wrote:We haven't hit a wall, not by a fair margin. Rybka 4 displays numerous weaknesses still IMHO, whether in the opening/middlegame, to the endgame.jplchess wrote:After Rybka 4 came out have we hit a WALL concerning software with tactics and postition? This excludes the opening library, endgame tablebases, and hardware. If there is room for improvement, then what would it be besides closed games?
I was a big fan of Mephisto Genius when it came out 17 years ago. The executable was 54,313 bytes for version number 2. That one was a senior master at the time and a grandmaster in tactics.
I am also a big fan of Fischer Random because obviously the opening library is very limited.
Please make some constructive posts.
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Re: Have we hit a wall on chess software after Rybka 4 came
The following thread talks about "search horizon" with regards to long term planning:Alexander Schmidt wrote:That's no horizon effect.Graham Banks wrote:Not offhand, no, but I'm referring to short term plans backfiring in the long term more than anything.Alexander Schmidt wrote:I did not see horizon effect moves for a long time. Do you have any exmples?Graham Banks wrote:The horizon effect is still a problem,
Cheers,
Graham.
Don't talk about things you don't understand.
Horizon effect is for example if a computer gives away a pawn for nothing to move a forced piece loss behind the search horizon (maybe compareable with sacrifices to delay a mate). Modern programs usually are able to avoid such stupid moves this with their large extensions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_effect
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... ?tid=17784
Cheers,
Graham.
gbanksnz at gmail.com
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Re: Have we hit a wall on chess software after Rybka 4 came
[Event "CM11 Slugfest II-1"]Alexander Schmidt wrote:Horizon effect moves are covered by extensions in top programs. I did not see horizon effect moves since years, not even by weaker engines.Graham Banks wrote:Misunderstanding of English. I meant that there are still occasions where the horizon effect (as defined in your link) occurs.
Somebody might be able to come up with some examples more quickly than I can.
It should be easy for you to show some of this moves you are talking about. No need to hurry. I can wait some weeks. I will remind you
[Site "Auckland"]
[Date "2010.06.25"]
[Round "2.22"]
[White "CM11th Trail Blazer"]
[Black "CM11th Conqueror"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "D89"]
[Annotator "0.67;0.61"]
[PlyCount "80"]
[EventDate "2010.05.30"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[Source "Banks"]
[TimeControl "40/1500:40/1500:40/1500"]
{Intel(R) Core(TM) i5 CPU 750 @ 2.67GHz 0 MHz W=14.9 ply; 513kN/s;
HS-Masterbook 2.0.ctg B=15.2 ply; 588kN/s; HS-Masterbook 2.0.ctg} 1. d4 {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} Nf6 {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 2. c4 {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} g6 {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 3. Nc3 {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} d5 {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 4. cxd5 {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} Nxd5 {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 5. e4 {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} Nxc3 {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 6. bxc3 {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} Bg7 {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 7. Bc4 {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} c5 {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 8. Ne2 {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} Nc6 {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 9. Be3 {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} O-O {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 10. O-O {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} Bg4 {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 11. f3 {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} Na5 {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 12. Bd3 {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} cxd4 {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 13. cxd4
{[%eval 67,14] [%emt 0:00:47]} Be6 {[%eval 61,14] [%emt 0:00:59]} 14. Rc1 {
[%eval 66,13] [%emt 0:00:49]} Bxa2 {[%eval 52,13] [%emt 0:00:37]} 15. Qa4 {
[%eval 47,13] [%emt 0:01:03]} Be6 {[%eval 44,13] [%emt 0:01:58]} 16. d5 {
[%eval 55,12] [%emt 0:00:38]} Bd7 {[%eval 46,12] [%emt 0:00:35]} 17. Qb4 {
[%eval 46,12] [%emt 0:00:37]} b6 {[%eval 38,12] [%emt 0:00:56]} 18. Rfd1 {
(Bd4) [%eval 38,11] [%emt 0:00:36]} Nb7 {[%eval 38,13] [%emt 0:00:50]} 19. Rb1
{(Bd4) [%eval 27,12] [%emt 0:01:26]} Nc5 {(f5) [%eval 8,12] [%emt 0:00:38]} 20.
Bxc5 {[%eval -6,13] [%emt 0:00:51]} bxc5 {[%eval -3,12] [%emt 0:00:16]} 21.
Qxc5 {[%eval -6,13] [%emt 0:00:34]} a5 {[%eval -10,13] [%emt 0:01:09]} 22. f4 {
[%eval -12,12] [%emt 0:00:54]} a4 {[%eval -13,12] [%emt 0:00:49]} 23. Qa3 {
[%eval -14,11] [%emt 0:00:39]} Rb8 {(Bg4) [%eval -35,13] [%emt 0:01:12]} 24.
Kh1 {[%eval -21,13] [%emt 0:00:47]} Rxb1 {[%eval -35,14] [%emt 0:00:46]} 25.
Rxb1 {[%eval -7,13] [%emt 0:00:24]} Qa5 {[%eval -49,13] [%emt 0:00:47]} 26.
Qxe7 {(Ng1) [%eval -16,13] [%emt 0:00:45]} a3 {[%eval -45,14] [%emt 0:00:46]}
27. Qxd7 {[%eval -27,13] [%emt 0:00:38]} a2 {[%eval -72,14] [%emt 0:00:35]} 28.
Qb7 {[%eval -58,14] [%emt 0:00:37]} a1=Q {[%eval -92,13] [%emt 0:01:17]} 29.
Rxa1 {[%eval -378,15] [%emt 0:00:36]} Qxa1+ {[%eval -365,18] [%emt 0:00:32]}
30. Qb1 {[%eval -401,18] [%emt 0:00:30]} Qxb1+ {[%eval -359,18] [%emt 0:00:32]}
31. Bxb1 {[%eval -393,18] [%emt 0:00:10]} Rb8 {[%eval -366,19] [%emt 0:00:53]}
32. Bd3 {[%eval -386,17] [%emt 0:00:20]} Rb3 {[%eval -370,18] [%emt 0:00:43]}
33. Nc1 {[%eval -391,17] [%emt 0:00:43]} Rc3 {[%eval -364,16] [%emt 0:00:32]}
34. g3 {[%eval -399,16] [%emt 0:01:07]} Rxc1+ {[%eval -365,15] [%emt 0:00:38]}
35. Kg2 {[%eval -391,15] [%emt 0:00:24]} Kf8 {[%eval -371,15] [%emt 0:00:37]}
36. h4 {[%eval -408,15] [%emt 0:00:57]} Ke7 {[%eval -384,15] [%emt 0:00:48]}
37. e5 {(Be2) [%eval -424,15] [%emt 0:00:56]} f6 {
[%eval -397,15] [%emt 0:00:38]} 38. exf6+ {[%eval -476,17] [%emt 0:01:14]} Bxf6
{[%eval -433,17] [%emt 0:00:34]} 39. Be4 {[%eval -483,16] [%emt 0:00:35]} Kd6 {
(Bd4) [%eval -442,17] [%emt 0:00:54]} 40. Kh3 {[%eval -497,17] [%emt 0:00:37]}
Kc5 {(Bc3) [%eval -472,17] [%emt 0:01:01]} 0-1
gbanksnz at gmail.com