Have we hit a wall on chess software after Rybka 4 came out?

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Alexander Schmidt
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Re: Have we hit a wall on chess software after Rybka 4 came

Post by Alexander Schmidt » Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:58 am

Graham Banks wrote:The horizon effect is still a problem,
I did not see horizon effect moves for a long time. Do you have any exmples?

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Graham Banks
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Re: Have we hit a wall on chess software after Rybka 4 came

Post by Graham Banks » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:01 am

Alexander Schmidt wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:The horizon effect is still a problem,
I did not see horizon effect moves for a long time. Do you have any exmples?
Not offhand, no, but I'm referring to short term plans backfiring in the long term more than anything.

Cheers,
Graham.
My email addresses:
gbanksnz at gmail.com
gbanksnz at yahoo.co.nz

Alexander Schmidt
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Re: Have we hit a wall on chess software after Rybka 4 came

Post by Alexander Schmidt » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:16 am

Graham Banks wrote:
Alexander Schmidt wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:The horizon effect is still a problem,
I did not see horizon effect moves for a long time. Do you have any exmples?
Not offhand, no, but I'm referring to short term plans backfiring in the long term more than anything.

Cheers,
Graham.
That's no horizon effect.

Don't talk about things you don't understand. :lol:

Horizon effect is for example if a computer gives away a pawn for nothing to move a forced piece loss behind the search horizon (maybe compareable with sacrifices to delay a mate). Modern programs usually are able to avoid such stupid moves this with their large extensions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_effect
Last edited by Alexander Schmidt on Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Graham Banks
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Re: Have we hit a wall on chess software after Rybka 4 came

Post by Graham Banks » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:19 am

Alexander Schmidt wrote: Horizon effect is for example if a computer gives away a pawn for nothing to move a forced piece loss behind the search horizon. Modern programs usually are able to see this with their large extensions
In 99% of cases yes, but there are still occasions where the horizon effect occurs.
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Alexander Schmidt
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Re: Have we hit a wall on chess software after Rybka 4 came

Post by Alexander Schmidt » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:22 am

Graham Banks wrote:In 99% of cases yes, but there are still occasions where the horizon effect occurs.
I was explaining the horizon effect. Its like I said in 100% of the cases. What you are talking about is no horizon effect.

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Graham Banks
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Re: Have we hit a wall on chess software after Rybka 4 came

Post by Graham Banks » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:25 am

Alexander Schmidt wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:In 99% of cases yes, but there are still occasions where the horizon effect occurs.
I was explaining the horizon effect. Its like I said in 100% of the cases. What you are talking about is no horizon effect.
Misunderstanding of English. I meant that there are still occasions where the horizon effect (as defined in your link) occurs.
Somebody might be able to come up with some examples more quickly than I can.

Cheers,
Graham.
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Alexander Schmidt
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Re: Have we hit a wall on chess software after Rybka 4 came

Post by Alexander Schmidt » Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:23 am

Graham Banks wrote:Misunderstanding of English. I meant that there are still occasions where the horizon effect (as defined in your link) occurs.
Somebody might be able to come up with some examples more quickly than I can.
Horizon effect moves are covered by extensions in top programs. I did not see horizon effect moves since years, not even by weaker engines.

It should be easy for you to show some of this moves you are talking about. No need to hurry. I can wait some weeks. I will remind you :lol:

S.Taylor
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Re: Have we hit a wall on chess software after Rybka 4 came

Post by S.Taylor » Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:12 am

Albert Silver wrote:
jplchess wrote:After Rybka 4 came out have we hit a WALL concerning software with tactics and postition? This excludes the opening library, endgame tablebases, and hardware. If there is room for improvement, then what would it be besides closed games?

I was a big fan of Mephisto Genius when it came out 17 years ago. The executable was 54,313 bytes for version number 2. That one was a senior master at the time and a grandmaster in tactics.

I am also a big fan of Fischer Random because obviously the opening library is very limited.

Please make some constructive posts. :idea:
We haven't hit a wall, not by a fair margin. Rybka 4 displays numerous weaknesses still IMHO, whether in the opening/middlegame, to the endgame.
So you agree that it isn't the quality Vas time of 2 years work, put into Rybka 4?

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Re: Have we hit a wall on chess software after Rybka 4 came

Post by Graham Banks » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:35 am

Alexander Schmidt wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Alexander Schmidt wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:The horizon effect is still a problem,
I did not see horizon effect moves for a long time. Do you have any exmples?
Not offhand, no, but I'm referring to short term plans backfiring in the long term more than anything.

Cheers,
Graham.
That's no horizon effect.

Don't talk about things you don't understand. :lol:

Horizon effect is for example if a computer gives away a pawn for nothing to move a forced piece loss behind the search horizon (maybe compareable with sacrifices to delay a mate). Modern programs usually are able to avoid such stupid moves this with their large extensions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_effect
The following thread talks about "search horizon" with regards to long term planning:
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... ?tid=17784

Cheers,
Graham.
My email addresses:
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gbanksnz at yahoo.co.nz

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Graham Banks
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Re: Have we hit a wall on chess software after Rybka 4 came

Post by Graham Banks » Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:00 am

Alexander Schmidt wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:Misunderstanding of English. I meant that there are still occasions where the horizon effect (as defined in your link) occurs.
Somebody might be able to come up with some examples more quickly than I can.
Horizon effect moves are covered by extensions in top programs. I did not see horizon effect moves since years, not even by weaker engines.

It should be easy for you to show some of this moves you are talking about. No need to hurry. I can wait some weeks. I will remind you :lol:
[Event "CM11 Slugfest II-1"]
[Site "Auckland"]
[Date "2010.06.25"]
[Round "2.22"]
[White "CM11th Trail Blazer"]
[Black "CM11th Conqueror"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "D89"]
[Annotator "0.67;0.61"]
[PlyCount "80"]
[EventDate "2010.05.30"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[Source "Banks"]
[TimeControl "40/1500:40/1500:40/1500"]

{Intel(R) Core(TM) i5 CPU 750 @ 2.67GHz 0 MHz W=14.9 ply; 513kN/s;
HS-Masterbook 2.0.ctg B=15.2 ply; 588kN/s; HS-Masterbook 2.0.ctg} 1. d4 {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} Nf6 {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 2. c4 {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} g6 {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 3. Nc3 {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} d5 {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 4. cxd5 {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} Nxd5 {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 5. e4 {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} Nxc3 {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 6. bxc3 {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} Bg7 {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 7. Bc4 {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} c5 {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 8. Ne2 {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} Nc6 {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 9. Be3 {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} O-O {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 10. O-O {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} Bg4 {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 11. f3 {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} Na5 {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 12. Bd3 {
[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} cxd4 {[%eval 35534,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 13. cxd4
{[%eval 67,14] [%emt 0:00:47]} Be6 {[%eval 61,14] [%emt 0:00:59]} 14. Rc1 {
[%eval 66,13] [%emt 0:00:49]} Bxa2 {[%eval 52,13] [%emt 0:00:37]} 15. Qa4 {
[%eval 47,13] [%emt 0:01:03]} Be6 {[%eval 44,13] [%emt 0:01:58]} 16. d5 {
[%eval 55,12] [%emt 0:00:38]} Bd7 {[%eval 46,12] [%emt 0:00:35]} 17. Qb4 {
[%eval 46,12] [%emt 0:00:37]} b6 {[%eval 38,12] [%emt 0:00:56]} 18. Rfd1 {
(Bd4) [%eval 38,11] [%emt 0:00:36]} Nb7 {[%eval 38,13] [%emt 0:00:50]} 19. Rb1
{(Bd4) [%eval 27,12] [%emt 0:01:26]} Nc5 {(f5) [%eval 8,12] [%emt 0:00:38]} 20.
Bxc5 {[%eval -6,13] [%emt 0:00:51]} bxc5 {[%eval -3,12] [%emt 0:00:16]} 21.
Qxc5 {[%eval -6,13] [%emt 0:00:34]} a5 {[%eval -10,13] [%emt 0:01:09]} 22. f4 {
[%eval -12,12] [%emt 0:00:54]} a4 {[%eval -13,12] [%emt 0:00:49]} 23. Qa3 {
[%eval -14,11] [%emt 0:00:39]} Rb8 {(Bg4) [%eval -35,13] [%emt 0:01:12]} 24.
Kh1 {[%eval -21,13] [%emt 0:00:47]} Rxb1 {[%eval -35,14] [%emt 0:00:46]} 25.
Rxb1 {[%eval -7,13] [%emt 0:00:24]} Qa5 {[%eval -49,13] [%emt 0:00:47]} 26.
Qxe7 {(Ng1) [%eval -16,13] [%emt 0:00:45]} a3 {[%eval -45,14] [%emt 0:00:46]}
27. Qxd7 {[%eval -27,13] [%emt 0:00:38]} a2 {[%eval -72,14] [%emt 0:00:35]} 28.
Qb7 {[%eval -58,14] [%emt 0:00:37]} a1=Q {[%eval -92,13] [%emt 0:01:17]} 29.
Rxa1 {[%eval -378,15] [%emt 0:00:36]} Qxa1+ {[%eval -365,18] [%emt 0:00:32]}
30. Qb1 {[%eval -401,18] [%emt 0:00:30]} Qxb1+ {[%eval -359,18] [%emt 0:00:32]}
31. Bxb1 {[%eval -393,18] [%emt 0:00:10]} Rb8 {[%eval -366,19] [%emt 0:00:53]}
32. Bd3 {[%eval -386,17] [%emt 0:00:20]} Rb3 {[%eval -370,18] [%emt 0:00:43]}
33. Nc1 {[%eval -391,17] [%emt 0:00:43]} Rc3 {[%eval -364,16] [%emt 0:00:32]}
34. g3 {[%eval -399,16] [%emt 0:01:07]} Rxc1+ {[%eval -365,15] [%emt 0:00:38]}
35. Kg2 {[%eval -391,15] [%emt 0:00:24]} Kf8 {[%eval -371,15] [%emt 0:00:37]}
36. h4 {[%eval -408,15] [%emt 0:00:57]} Ke7 {[%eval -384,15] [%emt 0:00:48]}
37. e5 {(Be2) [%eval -424,15] [%emt 0:00:56]} f6 {
[%eval -397,15] [%emt 0:00:38]} 38. exf6+ {[%eval -476,17] [%emt 0:01:14]} Bxf6
{[%eval -433,17] [%emt 0:00:34]} 39. Be4 {[%eval -483,16] [%emt 0:00:35]} Kd6 {
(Bd4) [%eval -442,17] [%emt 0:00:54]} 40. Kh3 {[%eval -497,17] [%emt 0:00:37]}
Kc5 {(Bc3) [%eval -472,17] [%emt 0:01:01]} 0-1
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