Let's get back to Reality in our scene

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gerold
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Re: Let's get back to Reality in our scene

Post by gerold » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:20 pm

Will you pay to rent a cluster and play Rybka. I won't.
How many people will. 1-2 percent of the computer chess
players.
There has been a vacuum created by the top engine.
Not much improvement for the last version.
To long a wait for an upgrade of the top engine.
Now that vacuum is being filled by other engines stronger
than the top engine. This is the way the world turns. Others
will rush in to fill the empty space. Computer chess is about
competition.Who will win, the strongest engine at a reasonable
price. People love computer chess the field has been expanded
much in the past 6 months.

Best,
Gerold.

P.S.
Happy to see you posting in the real computer chess forum.
Welcome back to CCC.

Steve B
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Re: Let's get back to Reality in our scene

Post by Steve B » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:31 pm

gerold wrote:
....posting in the real computer chess forum.
emphasis above by me...

you got that right
Spot On Regards
Steve

bob
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Re: Let's get back to Reality in our scene

Post by bob » Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:37 pm

Rolf wrote:
Robert Flesher wrote: Flawed logic, just because no action is taken against a crime / illegal action does not justifty its occurence. Absurd!

Rolf, Vas in his interview openly states that Fruit had NO influence on Rybka ?!! This has now been PROVEN to be false. Lies ! What does this say ? Try to look at the issue from a non biased point of view. You rant and talk about hate, how about you talk about the truth and the facts. Many just want the truth, but you seek to hide it with flavourful subjectivity.
If I ranted with the trivial hint on top number one question of court cases then what is it what you are doing if that is all irrelevant for sure so to speak? Look, I am a lay and I couldnt decide on the technical question. Bob answered me that he wouldnt sue anyone, Fabien doesnt sue, so, I conclude that this whole question is gone for good. I mean we are in 2010 and the beta R1 was in 2005. Did you ever answer why perhaps Fab didnt sue Vas? Have you at least one idea?

Therefore I meant let's get back to the reality without old hate campaigns. For the best of the hobby and its community. Dont lose yourself in negative thoughts.
For many of us, "the search for truth" has nothing to do with "hate". _Truth_ is what most are interested in. There may be some that hate Vas. There are some that hate me. There is someone that hates nearly everyone, if you look hard enough. So what. The truth is the issue. We know the truth about fruit/rybka, we know more about the Rybka/ip* issue.

You need to look up the word "consistency". On one hand you say that since Fabien did nothing about the Rybka/Fruit issue, all is ok, but then Vas has done nothing about the Rybka/IP* case, and yet things are _not_ ok.

You have to either pick a consistent position to argue from, or else stop making these posts that make you look like an idiot.

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Rolf
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Re: Let's get back to Reality in our scene

Post by Rolf » Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:20 pm

bob wrote:
Rolf wrote:
Robert Flesher wrote: Flawed logic, just because no action is taken against a crime / illegal action does not justifty its occurence. Absurd!

Rolf, Vas in his interview openly states that Fruit had NO influence on Rybka ?!! This has now been PROVEN to be false. Lies ! What does this say ? Try to look at the issue from a non biased point of view. You rant and talk about hate, how about you talk about the truth and the facts. Many just want the truth, but you seek to hide it with flavourful subjectivity.
If I ranted with the trivial hint on top number one question of court cases then what is it what you are doing if that is all irrelevant for sure so to speak? Look, I am a lay and I couldnt decide on the technical question. Bob answered me that he wouldnt sue anyone, Fabien doesnt sue, so, I conclude that this whole question is gone for good. I mean we are in 2010 and the beta R1 was in 2005. Did you ever answer why perhaps Fab didnt sue Vas? Have you at least one idea?

Therefore I meant let's get back to the reality without old hate campaigns. For the best of the hobby and its community. Dont lose yourself in negative thoughts.
For many of us, "the search for truth" has nothing to do with "hate". _Truth_ is what most are interested in. There may be some that hate Vas. There are some that hate me. There is someone that hates nearly everyone, if you look hard enough. So what. The truth is the issue. We know the truth about fruit/rybka, we know more about the Rybka/ip* issue.

You need to look up the word "consistency". On one hand you say that since Fabien did nothing about the Rybka/Fruit issue, all is ok, but then Vas has done nothing about the Rybka/IP* case, and yet things are _not_ ok.

You have to either pick a consistent position to argue from, or else stop making these posts that make you look like an idiot.
Err, but you are not an idiot if you choose inconsistent positions? How? -- We two at least know well why. You dont sue Vas because you cant prove against him. But folks, Bob does neither call the GPL offices and urge them to take Vas to task. Why? Because Bob knows that there wont be a case.

But if there wont be a case then everything against Vas (R1beta) is pure envy and hatred.

1) envy because certain famous experts have no idea how to improve their own prog so that it plays as well as Rybka; HINT nobody knows how Vas has done the miracle, also not Bob - talking about adopting the ideas andf then use them in the tech of the own prog - Vas is the only one who knows all the tricks! IMO

2) hate for different but failing reasons. Because Vas created his own forum after he was practically outsorted for allegedly dominating the CCC topics with his Rybka topics. Secondly because Vas did not accept a sort of sub role towards Bob. Thirdly for mere propaganda reasons. Theron: If I had no ethics like Vas I would also have a Tiger that were as strong as Rybka. That is character defamation of its finest but total nonsense because also CT has never shown proof against Vas. Since the case has a legal aspect suddenly these two grand experts presented Zach W. a total newbie, certainly someone with no financial background, so that a case against him wouldnt be worth while.

---------

My own position is pretty consistent because I agree with Vas that in case of Hippo anons it's not necessary to show one's evidence. As Vas wrote, in case someone would step forward, Vas would of course present his facts.

----


So, Bob, where is your problem? I can only repeat my call for all the opposing experts against Rybka, to tone down and looking forward into the future, there by doing the best for the community and computerchess as such.

It's absolutely contra-productive that a World Champion is molested and chased while he is always demonstrating that he is stronger than everybody else. The publication through RE codes does no harm to Vas but it destroys the usual CC contenders. Vas will always show that he's better, but they might lose interest in the scene.

It's telling for the bad ethical substance in CC that prior to Rybka nobody took the Champion prog and undertook it a RE and then published it in public - but now based on envy and hate certain older experts thought this were the best reaction also if it destroyed the usual CC comepetitions.

But Vas doesnt care. He goes for Clusters and online offers so that his genial codes are protected. But I digress. ;)
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz

bob
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Re: Let's get back to Reality in our scene

Post by bob » Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:49 pm

Rolf wrote:
bob wrote:
Rolf wrote:
Robert Flesher wrote: Flawed logic, just because no action is taken against a crime / illegal action does not justifty its occurence. Absurd!

Rolf, Vas in his interview openly states that Fruit had NO influence on Rybka ?!! This has now been PROVEN to be false. Lies ! What does this say ? Try to look at the issue from a non biased point of view. You rant and talk about hate, how about you talk about the truth and the facts. Many just want the truth, but you seek to hide it with flavourful subjectivity.
If I ranted with the trivial hint on top number one question of court cases then what is it what you are doing if that is all irrelevant for sure so to speak? Look, I am a lay and I couldnt decide on the technical question. Bob answered me that he wouldnt sue anyone, Fabien doesnt sue, so, I conclude that this whole question is gone for good. I mean we are in 2010 and the beta R1 was in 2005. Did you ever answer why perhaps Fab didnt sue Vas? Have you at least one idea?

Therefore I meant let's get back to the reality without old hate campaigns. For the best of the hobby and its community. Dont lose yourself in negative thoughts.
For many of us, "the search for truth" has nothing to do with "hate". _Truth_ is what most are interested in. There may be some that hate Vas. There are some that hate me. There is someone that hates nearly everyone, if you look hard enough. So what. The truth is the issue. We know the truth about fruit/rybka, we know more about the Rybka/ip* issue.

You need to look up the word "consistency". On one hand you say that since Fabien did nothing about the Rybka/Fruit issue, all is ok, but then Vas has done nothing about the Rybka/IP* case, and yet things are _not_ ok.

You have to either pick a consistent position to argue from, or else stop making these posts that make you look like an idiot.
Err, but you are not an idiot if you choose inconsistent positions? How? -- We two at least know well why. You dont sue Vas because you cant prove against him. But folks, Bob does neither call the GPL offices and urge them to take Vas to task. Why? Because Bob knows that there wont be a case.
Let's stick to facts. +I+ don't sue Vas for several reasons:

(1) I have no standing to do so. I have not been "damaged" by him in any way, he did not steal my code, he has not cost me any money. Only Fabien or FSF could sue him and not have the case tossed out.

(2) I have nothing to gain and much to lose. It would take time. It would cost money. And with no potential damages to reclaim, what reason wouldl I have to jump into that quagmire.

But if there wont be a case then everything against Vas (R1beta) is pure envy and hatred.
OK. And since there is not going to be a case against the IP* program and derivatives, then everything against those programs is also pure envy and hatred? Or is this another example of gross inconsistency in your argument?

1) envy because certain famous experts have no idea how to improve their own prog so that it plays as well as Rybka; HINT nobody knows how Vas has done the miracle, also not Bob - talking about adopting the ideas andf then use them in the tech of the own prog - Vas is the only one who knows all the tricks! IMO
And that IMO is important. Because it is an opinion with no technical expertise to back it up. My opinion about brain surgery, or cancer treatment would be worth just as much as your opinion on this subject. Because I don't know anything about those topics. I _do_ know a lot about the topic of computer chess, however.

I've not looked at ip* and family to take any ideas, yet. I am still testing a list of ideas that I have on my to-do list. Ditto for Tracy.



2) hate for different but failing reasons. Because Vas created his own forum after he was practically outsorted for allegedly dominating the CCC topics with his Rybka topics. Secondly because Vas did not accept a sort of sub role towards Bob. Thirdly for mere propaganda reasons. Theron: If I had no ethics like Vas I would also have a Tiger that were as strong as Rybka. That is character defamation of its finest but total nonsense because also CT has never shown proof against Vas. Since the case has a legal aspect suddenly these two grand experts presented Zach W. a total newbie, certainly someone with no financial background, so that a case against him wouldnt be worth while.
Random thoughts from a random mind? Why would he need to accept a "sub-role" regarding me? Hsu/Campbell didn't. Thompson didn't. Slate didn't. We are all still friends to date. Your psychological profiling skills simply suck. _badly_.

---------

My own position is pretty consistent because I agree with Vas that in case of Hippo anons it's not necessary to show one's evidence. As Vas wrote, in case someone would step forward, Vas would of course present his facts.
...
...
...
...

Sorry for the brief delay, I had to pause and duck when a pig flew over my head...



----


So, Bob, where is your problem? I can only repeat my call for all the opposing experts against Rybka, to tone down and looking forward into the future, there by doing the best for the community and computerchess as such.

The goal, the _only_ goal, is to shine a light so that the truth can be seen by all, eventually even by those that are blind, such as yourself.

It's absolutely contra-productive that a World Champion is molested and chased while he is always demonstrating that he is stronger than everybody else. The publication through RE codes does no harm to Vas but it destroys the usual CC contenders. Vas will always show that he's better, but they might lose interest in the scene.
I was here 30+ years before Vas came along. Unless I die, I will be here long after Vas has moved on to other endeavors.

It's telling for the bad ethical substance in CC that prior to Rybka nobody took the Champion prog and undertook it a RE and then published it in public - but now based on envy and hate certain older experts thought this were the best reaction also if it destroyed the usual CC comepetitions.

But Vas doesnt care. He goes for Clusters and online offers so that his genial codes are protected. But I digress. ;)
You _always_ digress, but that's a different problem..

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: Let's get back to Reality in our scene

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:04 pm

bob wrote:
Rolf wrote:
bob wrote:
Rolf wrote:
Robert Flesher wrote: Flawed logic, just because no action is taken against a crime / illegal action does not justifty its occurence. Absurd!

Rolf, Vas in his interview openly states that Fruit had NO influence on Rybka ?!! This has now been PROVEN to be false. Lies ! What does this say ? Try to look at the issue from a non biased point of view. You rant and talk about hate, how about you talk about the truth and the facts. Many just want the truth, but you seek to hide it with flavourful subjectivity.
If I ranted with the trivial hint on top number one question of court cases then what is it what you are doing if that is all irrelevant for sure so to speak? Look, I am a lay and I couldnt decide on the technical question. Bob answered me that he wouldnt sue anyone, Fabien doesnt sue, so, I conclude that this whole question is gone for good. I mean we are in 2010 and the beta R1 was in 2005. Did you ever answer why perhaps Fab didnt sue Vas? Have you at least one idea?

Therefore I meant let's get back to the reality without old hate campaigns. For the best of the hobby and its community. Dont lose yourself in negative thoughts.
For many of us, "the search for truth" has nothing to do with "hate". _Truth_ is what most are interested in. There may be some that hate Vas. There are some that hate me. There is someone that hates nearly everyone, if you look hard enough. So what. The truth is the issue. We know the truth about fruit/rybka, we know more about the Rybka/ip* issue.

You need to look up the word "consistency". On one hand you say that since Fabien did nothing about the Rybka/Fruit issue, all is ok, but then Vas has done nothing about the Rybka/IP* case, and yet things are _not_ ok.

You have to either pick a consistent position to argue from, or else stop making these posts that make you look like an idiot.
Err, but you are not an idiot if you choose inconsistent positions? How? -- We two at least know well why. You dont sue Vas because you cant prove against him. But folks, Bob does neither call the GPL offices and urge them to take Vas to task. Why? Because Bob knows that there wont be a case.
Let's stick to facts. +I+ don't sue Vas for several reasons:

(1) I have no standing to do so. I have not been "damaged" by him in any way, he did not steal my code, he has not cost me any money. Only Fabien or FSF could sue him and not have the case tossed out.

(2) I have nothing to gain and much to lose. It would take time. It would cost money. And with no potential damages to reclaim, what reason wouldl I have to jump into that quagmire.

But if there wont be a case then everything against Vas (R1beta) is pure envy and hatred.
OK. And since there is not going to be a case against the IP* program and derivatives, then everything against those programs is also pure envy and hatred? Or is this another example of gross inconsistency in your argument?

1) envy because certain famous experts have no idea how to improve their own prog so that it plays as well as Rybka; HINT nobody knows how Vas has done the miracle, also not Bob - talking about adopting the ideas andf then use them in the tech of the own prog - Vas is the only one who knows all the tricks! IMO
And that IMO is important. Because it is an opinion with no technical expertise to back it up. My opinion about brain surgery, or cancer treatment would be worth just as much as your opinion on this subject. Because I don't know anything about those topics. I _do_ know a lot about the topic of computer chess, however.

I've not looked at ip* and family to take any ideas, yet. I am still testing a list of ideas that I have on my to-do list. Ditto for Tracy.



2) hate for different but failing reasons. Because Vas created his own forum after he was practically outsorted for allegedly dominating the CCC topics with his Rybka topics. Secondly because Vas did not accept a sort of sub role towards Bob. Thirdly for mere propaganda reasons. Theron: If I had no ethics like Vas I would also have a Tiger that were as strong as Rybka. That is character defamation of its finest but total nonsense because also CT has never shown proof against Vas. Since the case has a legal aspect suddenly these two grand experts presented Zach W. a total newbie, certainly someone with no financial background, so that a case against him wouldnt be worth while.
Random thoughts from a random mind? Why would he need to accept a "sub-role" regarding me? Hsu/Campbell didn't. Thompson didn't. Slate didn't. We are all still friends to date. Your psychological profiling skills simply suck. _badly_.

---------

My own position is pretty consistent because I agree with Vas that in case of Hippo anons it's not necessary to show one's evidence. As Vas wrote, in case someone would step forward, Vas would of course present his facts.
...
...
...
...

Sorry for the brief delay, I had to pause and duck when a pig flew over my head...



----


So, Bob, where is your problem? I can only repeat my call for all the opposing experts against Rybka, to tone down and looking forward into the future, there by doing the best for the community and computerchess as such.

The goal, the _only_ goal, is to shine a light so that the truth can be seen by all, eventually even by those that are blind, such as yourself.

It's absolutely contra-productive that a World Champion is molested and chased while he is always demonstrating that he is stronger than everybody else. The publication through RE codes does no harm to Vas but it destroys the usual CC contenders. Vas will always show that he's better, but they might lose interest in the scene.
I was here 30+ years before Vas came along. Unless I die, I will be here long after Vas has moved on to other endeavors.

It's telling for the bad ethical substance in CC that prior to Rybka nobody took the Champion prog and undertook it a RE and then published it in public - but now based on envy and hate certain older experts thought this were the best reaction also if it destroyed the usual CC comepetitions.

But Vas doesnt care. He goes for Clusters and online offers so that his genial codes are protected. But I digress. ;)
You _always_ digress, but that's a different problem..
That's one of the main specifications of trolls Bob....they always disagree to keep trolling....
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

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Rolf
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Re: Let's get back to Reality in our scene

Post by Rolf » Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:11 pm

bob wrote:
Let's stick to facts. +I+ don't sue Vas for several reasons:

(1) I have no standing to do so. I have not been "damaged" by him in any way, he did not steal my code, he has not cost me any money. Only Fabien or FSF could sue him and not have the case tossed out.

(2) I have nothing to gain and much to lose. It would take time. It would cost money. And with no potential damages to reclaim, what reason wouldl I have to jump into that quagmire.

nd hatred? Or is this another example of gross inconsistency in your argument?
Thanks for the clarity. Would you make the same chain for Fabien in return? Because you claim the he must have been damaged. Question from Germany: Why doesnt he sue Vas?????

Bob, do you see a minimal chance that this reason might have something to do with my position that Vas didnt harm Fabien at all but everything was kosher between the two?

And if that were true (the truth!), could it be that the hate campaign was nonsense all the time and you should apologize to the Champion? BTW did you know that Vas grew up in the USA for a part of his life? Why is he so thoughtful then? Isnt he a good role model for a scientist?

Isnt there no chance that we could live together in peace enjoying computerchess? I mean Vas is now entering the field where you have been in your past with Cray, no? Could Cray be called a Cluster too? Where are the differences. Please say some words about it. Thanks in advance.
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz

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Rolf
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Re: Let's get back to Reality in our scene

Post by Rolf » Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:23 pm

Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
bob wrote:
You _always_ digress, but that's a different problem..
That's one of the main specifications of trolls Bob....they always disagree to keep trolling....
LOL - please stay away when adults are talking.... :lol:
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: Let's get back to Reality in our scene

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:27 pm

Rolf wrote:
Dr.Wael Deeb wrote:
bob wrote:
You _always_ digress, but that's a different problem..
That's one of the main specifications of trolls Bob....they always disagree to keep trolling....
LOL - please stay away when adults are talking.... :lol:
Ok Grandpa....I'll go to the backyard to play :lol:
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

bob
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Re: Let's get back to Reality in our scene

Post by bob » Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:34 pm

Rolf wrote:
bob wrote:
Let's stick to facts. +I+ don't sue Vas for several reasons:

(1) I have no standing to do so. I have not been "damaged" by him in any way, he did not steal my code, he has not cost me any money. Only Fabien or FSF could sue him and not have the case tossed out.

(2) I have nothing to gain and much to lose. It would take time. It would cost money. And with no potential damages to reclaim, what reason wouldl I have to jump into that quagmire.

nd hatred? Or is this another example of gross inconsistency in your argument?
Thanks for the clarity. Would you make the same chain for Fabien in return? Because you claim the he must have been damaged. Question from Germany: Why doesnt he sue Vas?????
I don't accept that argument, _period_. If there is enough evidence to convict one, based on expert opinion, then that is enough. Prosecution is not required except to exact justice. Justice is less important here than just knowing the _facts_. There are other clones. Quite a few, in fact.



Bob, do you see a minimal chance that this reason might have something to do with my position that Vas didnt harm Fabien at all but everything was kosher between the two?
No, because A can't copy code from B and be legal in _any_ tournament or event which has a no clone/derivative rule. Doesn't matter what B says, B is _still_ an author of the program A produced. We _already_ have a copy of Fruit, named "Toga". And it has been allowed with Fabien's approval with him listed as an author. A second such program is not allowable. _ever_. And when A copies B but explicitly denies anything was copied... the term "poor ethical behaviour" is the first thing that comes to mind.


And if that were true (the truth!), could it be that the hate campaign was nonsense all the time and you should apologize to the Champion? BTW did you know that Vas grew up in the USA for a part of his life? Why is he so thoughtful then? Isnt he a good role model for a scientist?
I have no idea what you mean by "hate campaign." The correct name would be "truth campaign." As for where he grew up, who cares and why would that matter at all, anyway?



Isnt there no chance that we could live together in peace enjoying computerchess? I mean Vas is now entering the field where you have been in your past with Cray, no? Could Cray be called a Cluster too? Where are the differences. Please say some words about it. Thanks in advance.
Cray is _not_ "a cluster" in the forms I have used one.

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