Stockfish is a clone of Glarung!!

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Tom Barrister
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Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:29 pm

Stockfish is a clone of Glarung!!

Post by Tom Barrister » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:11 pm

Yes, I know that Stockfish is a fork of Glarung.

Having read this forum for a few weeks, I've come to the conclusion that 95% of what's posted here is repetitive. I know that others have come to that conclusion as well, and such has been mentioned.

My opinions, based on what I've read here and elsewhere, are:

1) Mr. Rajlich took much of Fruit, and probably much of other code, to make Rybka. In the interim, he's probably taken many ideas from wherever he could, ethically or otherwise (and it's likely that there is a good bit of "otherwise"), combined this with a few ideas of his own, and come up with Rybka in its various stages of development.

2) That the name "Fruit" perfectly describes its creator (Mr. Letouzey).

3) That the Ip* series of engines drew heavily on Fruit and whatever else they could steal and have tried to improve it with what few ideas they've had and whatever else they could get, ethically or otherwise (and who's to say that they haven't reverse engineered all of the closed-source programs, commercial or not?).

4) That it no longer makes a difference to me, since the engines that aren't accused of anything (i.e. Stockfish) play well enough and analyze well enough to suit my needs. Another 100 ELO won't make a difference to me.

5) 1 will get you 10 that this thread ends up being another Fruit-Rybka-Ippolit pole-waving match before it ends.

I'm out. The whole place is pointless.
This production is being brought to you by Rybka: "The engine made from scratch.™"

Albert Silver
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Re: Stockfish is a clone of Glarung!!

Post by Albert Silver » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:41 pm

Tom Barrister wrote:Yes, I know that Stockfish is a fork of Glarung.

Having read this forum for a few weeks, I've come to the conclusion that 95% of what's posted here is repetitive. I know that others have come to that conclusion as well, and such has been mentioned.

My opinions, based on what I've read here and elsewhere, are:

1) Mr. Rajlich took much of Fruit, and probably much of other code, to make Rybka. In the interim, he's probably taken many ideas from wherever he could, ethically or otherwise (and it's likely that there is a good bit of "otherwise"), combined this with a few ideas of his own, and come up with Rybka in its various stages of development.

2) That the name "Fruit" perfectly describes its creator (Mr. Letouzey).

3) That the Ip* series of engines drew heavily on Fruit and whatever else they could steal and have tried to improve it with what few ideas they've had and whatever else they could get, ethically or otherwise (and who's to say that they haven't reverse engineered all of the closed-source programs, commercial or not?).

4) That it no longer makes a difference to me, since the engines that aren't accused of anything (i.e. Stockfish) play well enough and analyze well enough to suit my needs. Another 100 ELO won't make a difference to me.

5) 1 will get you 10 that this thread ends up being another Fruit-Rybka-Ippolit pole-waving match before it ends.

I'm out. The whole place is pointless.
So is this thread with all due respect. You complain this will be a thread about clones, yet you started it, and that is its subject. You then claim you are leaving because of this. You know, no one is forcing you to read and write solely on that subject. :roll:
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."

Steve B
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Re: Stockfish is a clone of Glarung!!

Post by Steve B » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:49 pm

Ever since the emergence of the Ippo engines(last year) there have been many threads here regarding the Great Derivatives Debate
while repetition is not desirable ..i guess its inevitable ..considering the strong views on both sides of the issue

your choices for computer chess forums are basically limited to:
1)Commercial forums... moderators are appointed from above and no discussion is even allowed about the Derivatives..
2)A newly created forum called "Open chess" ..mods are appointed from above and where everybody basically agrees on the issues and every one is in lock step and drink the same kool-aid...so no serious debate takes place here either

and then you have
3) The CCC .to this day..14 years and counting .. ...STILL THE PREMIERE forum on the net for computer chess discussion
mods are elected by the members every six months ..and all view points are represented
the number of threads/posts/views here exceeds all of the other forums combined ..by several magnitude

Numero Uno Regards
Steve

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Houdini
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Re: Stockfish is a clone of Glarung!!

Post by Houdini » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:53 pm

Tom Barrister wrote:I'm out. The whole place is pointless.
If the only topics you read on this forum are the endless "cloning" or "Vas" discussions, than indeed TalkChess is rubbish and it's better to leave.
But you can also decide to ignore these pointless discussions... the choice is entirely up to you.

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George Tsavdaris
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Re: Stockfish is a clone of Glarung!!

Post by George Tsavdaris » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:06 pm

Tom Barrister wrote:My opinions, based on what I've read here and elsewhere, are:
1) Mr. Rajlich took much of Fruit, and probably much of other code, to make Rybka.

In the interim, he's probably taken many ideas from wherever he could, ethically or otherwise (and it's likely that there is a good bit of "otherwise"), combined this with a few ideas of his own, and come up with Rybka in its various stages of development.
Wait a minute. Even if the second paragraph is true, and i guess it is, you present it like it's immoral or unethical or something.

Well to clear things up, taking the ideas you see from various programs or rumors about a program or even by disassembling a program(i think the act of disassembling is illegal but not the action of using what you have seen from the disassembled program), is NOT illegal or unethical or immoral at all.
This is how is supposed to be. You should not reinvent the wheel all the time.
ALL and i mean all Chess programmers have stand in the shoulders of their predecessors on their field, for creating their engine.

Stealing ideas is not a valid expression.

So it's not that Vas has done anything bad as you present it, by taking ideas from whenever he could, since everybody do the same.
The matter that he didn't share his ideas afterwards, for the community to profit (the idea to receive but then offer also), is totally different and irrelevant to the accusations of cloning.
After his son's birth they've asked him:
"Is it a boy or girl?"
YES! He replied.....

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OliverUwira
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Re: Stockfish is a clone of Glarung!!

Post by OliverUwira » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:11 pm

Image

rabbits
Posts: 276
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Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Stockfish is a clone of Glarung!!

Post by rabbits » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:06 pm

Very clever!
Allan

Michael Sherwin
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Full name: Michael Sherwin

Re: Stockfish is a clone of Glarung!!

Post by Michael Sherwin » Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:22 pm

OliverUwira wrote:Image
Okay, I admit that I am tempted to look inside. However, I am suspecting that it might be a trap or something. I wasn't born yesterday you know! There is probably a shinny penny or something else like a paid on disk copy of Rybka 4 that would make it very hard to resist reaching in for such a prize! I suppose that I could step on that little metal thing at the bottom to keep it from closing, but, that is also probably a trap. It might turn on a vacuum that sucks me in to my death.

Ah, but if there is a chance, the slightest chance, that the latest and greatest Ippo clone is in there ... maybe just maybe I could sneak a little peek ... just a little closer ...
If you are on a sidewalk and the covid goes beep beep
Just step aside or you might have a bit of heat
Covid covid runs through the town all day
Can the people ever change their ways
Sherwin the covid's after you
Sherwin if it catches you you're through

Sean Evans
Posts: 1777
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Re: Stockfish is a clone of Glarung!!

Post by Sean Evans » Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:15 pm

Tom Barrister wrote:Yes, I know that Stockfish is a fork of Glarung.

Having read this forum for a few weeks, I've come to the conclusion that 95% of what's posted here is repetitive. I know that others have come to that conclusion as well, and such has been mentioned.

My opinions, based on what I've read here and elsewhere, are:

1) Mr. Rajlich took much of Fruit, and probably much of other code, to make Rybka. In the interim, he's probably taken many ideas from wherever he could, ethically or otherwise (and it's likely that there is a good bit of "otherwise"), combined this with a few ideas of his own, and come up with Rybka in its various stages of development.

2) That the name "Fruit" perfectly describes its creator (Mr. Letouzey).

3) That the Ip* series of engines drew heavily on Fruit and whatever else they could steal and have tried to improve it with what few ideas they've had and whatever else they could get, ethically or otherwise (and who's to say that they haven't reverse engineered all of the closed-source programs, commercial or not?).

4) That it no longer makes a difference to me, since the engines that aren't accused of anything (i.e. Stockfish) play well enough and analyze well enough to suit my needs. Another 100 ELO won't make a difference to me.

5) 1 will get you 10 that this thread ends up being another Fruit-Rybka-Ippolit pole-waving match before it ends.

I'm out. The whole place is pointless.
Didn't we create an "Engine Origins" forum to keep these never ending posts out of the "General Topics"?? If so, why are they allowed to be posted here?

Werewolf
Posts: 1351
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Stockfish is a clone of Glarung!!

Post by Werewolf » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:43 pm

Robert,
What have you been working with Houdini over the last few months? I know the next update is due pretty soon but I was wondering if you could give a taster of some of the things you've been developing?

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