How long until your favorite engine finds f4?

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Dann Corbit
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Re: How long until your favorite engine finds f4?

Post by Dann Corbit »

Dann Corbit wrote: It appears that b3 may be a viable alternative.
I still suspect that f4 is better.
It looks to me like the b3 and f4 lines are transpositions of each other.
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OliverUwira
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Location: Frankfurt am Main

Re: How long until your favorite engine finds f4?

Post by OliverUwira »

yanquis1972 wrote:
tano-urayoan wrote:
yanquis1972 wrote: in most of these kind of sicilian positions white just has a massive advantage imo. a solid najdorf is really the only option for black. if white pushes pawns, develops & castles, as here, it's game over for black. the dragon has been theoretically dead since the 70s imo. blacks sole threat here is an advanced b pawn with the king stuck in the center. its up to white to find the resources to take advantage of that & i doubt f4 is the only one.
Really? you should sell all your analysis to GM's it will revolutionize chess.
no, it won't. it's my belief it's well known among GMs.
I guess that's why the Dragon was played by Kasparov in the 1995 World Championsship match. Probably Carlsen also played it only to confuse his opponents...

As for your other comments, this is just ridiculous. The Kan/Taimanov complex and the Sveshnikov are far more solid than the Najdorf.

With regard to the Sveshnikov, I've been playing this for 15 years now, which is basically all my chess life, and during this time I have so very often heard it's been refuted - which of course always turned out to be a load of hot air.

As for the Dragon, I've not heard of a refutation recently. The last serious one was this:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 11.Kb1 Qc7 12.h4 Rfc8 13.h5 Qa5 14.hxg6 hxg6 15.a3 Rab8 16.Bd3 Bc4 17.Bxc4 Rxc4 18.Qc1!

which was claimed to refute the Dragon. Subsequently we saw improvements for Black in the 9...d5 line. And I also saw discussion in a recent dragon book about alternatives to 16...Bc4 in the above line.

Theoretically dead since the seventies? Yeah, right...
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George Tsavdaris
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Re: How long until your favorite engine finds f4?

Post by George Tsavdaris »

Dann Corbit wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote: It appears that b3 may be a viable alternative.
I still suspect that f4 is better.
It looks to me like the b3 and f4 lines are transpositions of each other.
Not really.

It's all theory that 17.b3 (1.b3 in your case) wins. And most probably 17.f4 wins too but i'm not sure.
1.b3 is the superior move here and wins easily. 1.f4 gives the chance to black to put some unnecessary problems for white.

This position is won for white. The problems lies in the previous moves of black. This position arises after:
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6
5. Nc3 a6 6. Be3 Ng4 7. Bc1 Nf6 8. f3 e6
9. Be3 b5 10. Qd2 Bb7 11. O-O-O Nbd7 12. g4 h6
13. h4 b4 14. Na4 d5 15. Bh3 Ne5 16. g5 Nfd7

Black made 2 big mistakes here:
First is 12...h6? as he should play by all means 12...Nb6 and second mistake was 14...d5?! as he should better prefer 14...Qa5.

15...Ne5 was not the smartest move either and 15...dxe4 should be preferred although white would have the upper hand again.
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George Tsavdaris
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Re: How long until your favorite engine finds f4?

Post by George Tsavdaris »

Dann Corbit wrote:1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 4.Nc3 cxd4 5.Nxd4 e6 6.Be3 a6 7.f3 Nbd7 8.g4 h6 9.Qd2 b5 10.O-O-O Bb7 11.h4 b4 12.Na4 d5 13.Bh3 Ne5 14.g5 Nfd7
Well on your version of the game that leads to the same position black has made the mistakes of 7...Nbd7? where current theory has black to play almost only 7...b5 (he can try Be7 or even h5) and the mistake of 12...d5? instead of the correct 12...Qa5 and then as with my line 13...Ne5?! was not a smart move although even the best 13...dxe4 would not change the outcome as white would still be better.

So all in all your position is easily won for white after 1.b3 and perhaps after 1.f4 also.
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Robert Flesher
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Re: How long until your favorite engine finds f4?

Post by Robert Flesher »

Dann Corbit wrote:
kgburcham wrote:Dann note in the game f4 is played at move 18.
And from there on in, it was played improperly.

Solovjov,S - Pavlov,A, Petroff Mem Open 2000
[D] r2qkb1r/1b1n1pp1/p3p2p/3pn1P1/Np1NP2P/4BP1B/PPPQ4/2KR3R w kq - 0 1

Deep Rybka 4 SSE42 x64:

17.exd5 Bxd5 18.Qf2 Rc8 19.b3 Be7 20.Kb1 h5 21.Rhg1 0-0 22.f4 Ng4 23.Bxg4 hxg4 24.Rxg4 Be4 25.Ka1 Nc5
= (0.20) Depth: 12 00:00:01 763kN
17.exd5 Bxd5 18.Qf2 Rc8 19.b3 Be7 20.Kb1 h5 21.Rhg1 0-0 22.f4 Ng4 23.Bxg4 hxg4 24.Rxg4 Be4 25.h5 Qc7 26.g6
= (0.23) Depth: 13 00:00:02 1738kN
17.exd5 Bxd5 18.gxh6 gxh6 19.Qe2 Qa5 20.b3 Rc8 21.Bf4 Bg7 22.Rhg1 Bf6 23.Kb1 Nc4 24.Bc1 Nc5 25.Nxc5 Rxc5 26.Qh2 Be5 27.f4
= (0.22) Depth: 14 00:00:06 4787kN
17.Kb1 Rc8 18.Qe2 Qa5 19.exd5 Bxd5 20.b3 Be7 21.gxh6 gxh6 22.Bf4 Qc7 23.Rhe1 Bf6 24.Bg2 a5 25.Qf2
+/= (0.27) Depth: 14 00:00:13 10527kN
17.Qf2 dxe4 18.g6 Nxg6 19.Nxe6 fxe6 20.Bxe6 Bc6 21.Nb6 Nge5 22.Nxa8 Qxa8
+/= (0.35 ++) Depth: 14 00:00:14 10620kN
17.Qf2 Qa5 18.b3 g6 19.gxh6 dxe4 20.fxe4 Rc8 21.Kb1 Bxe4 22.Rhe1 Bd5 23.Qd2 Qc7 24.Bf1
+/= (0.50 ++) Depth: 14 00:00:18 13576kN
17.Qf2 Qa5 18.b3 hxg5 19.hxg5 0-0-0 20.f4 Nc4 21.Kb1 Na3+ 22.Kb2 g6 23.e5 Nc4+ 24.Kb1 Kb8 25.Bc1 Be7 26.Bg2 Rc8 27.Rxh8 Rxh8 28.bxc4 Qxa4 29.cxd5 exd5 30.e6 fxe6
+/= (0.43) Depth: 14 00:00:21 15981kN
17.Qf2 Qa5 18.b3 hxg5 19.hxg5 0-0-0 20.f4 Nc4 21.Kb1 Na3+ 22.Kb2 g6 23.e5 Nc4+ 24.Kb1 Kb8 25.Bc1 Be7 26.Bg2 Rc8 27.Rxh8 Rxh8 28.bxc4 Qxa4 29.cxd5 exd5 30.e6 fxe6
+/= (0.54) Depth: 15 00:00:25 19034kN
17.Qf2 Qa5 18.b3 hxg5 19.hxg5 0-0-0 20.f4 Nc4 21.e5 Kb8 22.g6 Nc5 23.gxf7 Nxa4 24.bxa4 Qxa4 25.Kb1 Rxh3 26.Rxh3[] Qa3 27.c3 bxc3 28.Rd3 Qa5 29.Nxe6 Nxe3 30.Nxf8 Qb4+ 31.Ka1 Ng4 32.Qg2
+/= (0.65) Depth: 16 00:00:44 33532kN
17.Qf2 Qa5 18.b3 hxg5 19.hxg5 0-0-0 20.f4 Nc4 21.e5 Kb8 22.g6 Nc5 23.gxf7 Nxa4 24.bxa4 Qxa4 25.Kb1 Rxh3 26.Rxh3[] Qa3 27.c3 bxc3 28.Rd3 Qa5 29.Nxe6 Nxe3 30.Nxf8 Qb4+ 31.Ka1 Ng4 32.Qg2
+/= (0.65) Depth: 17 00:00:52 39088kN
17.Qf2 Qa5 18.b3 hxg5 19.hxg5 0-0-0 20.Qg1 g6 21.exd5 Bxd5 22.Bxe6 Rxh1 23.Bxd7+ Nxd7 24.Qxh1 Kb7 25.Kb1 Nc5 26.Nxc5+ Bxc5 27.Qh3 Qc7 28.Qg4 Be6 29.Qg1 Bxd4 30.Bxd4 Rc8 31.Qf2
+/= (0.62) Depth: 18 00:01:24 66949kN
17.gxh6 Nc4 18.Qe2 Nxe3 19.Qxe3 Qf6 20.exd5 g6 21.f4 Bxh6 22.Ne2 Qe5 23.Qxe5 Nxe5 24.Bg2 Rc8 25.Nb6 Rd8 26.h5 Rd6 27.Kb1 Ng4 28.Nc4 Rxd5
+/= (0.66) Depth: 18 00:03:28 176mN
17.b3 dxe4 18.f4
+/- (0.77 ++) Depth: 18 00:03:43 188mN
17.b3 dxe4 18.f4
+/- (0.92 ++) Depth: 18 00:04:02 200mN
17.b3 Qa5 18.gxh6 dxe4 19.Rhg1 gxh6 20.Nxe6[] fxe6 21.f4[] Bd5 22.fxe5[] Rc8 23.Qe2 Qc7 24.Qh5+ Ke7 25.Rd2
+/- (1.29) Depth: 18 00:07:45 371mN
17.b3 Qa5 18.gxh6 dxe4 19.Rhg1 gxh6 20.Nxe6[] fxe6 21.f4[] Bd5 22.fxe5[] Rc8 23.Qe2 Qc7 24.Qh5+ Ke7 25.Rd2
+- (1.41 ++) Depth: 19 00:10:45 505mN
17.b3 h5 18.f4 Ng4 19.exd5 Bxd5 20.Rhe1 Qc7 21.Bg2 Nxe3 22.Rxe3 0-0-0 23.Bxd5 exd5 24.Kb1 Nb6 25.Nxb6+ Qxb6 26.Nf5 Bc5 27.Re5 g6 28.Ne7+ Kb7 29.Nxd5 Qc6 30.Qd3 Rhe8 31.Rxe8 Qxe8 32.f5
+/- (1.40) Depth: 19 00:15:14 694mN
17.b3 h5 18.f4 Ng4 19.exd5 Bxd5 20.Rhe1 Qc7 21.Bg2 Nxe3 22.Rxe3 0-0-0 23.Bxd5 exd5 24.Kb1 Nb6 25.Nxb6+ Qxb6 26.Nf5 Bc5 27.Re5 g6 28.Ne7+ Kb7 29.Nxd5 Qc6 30.Qd3 Rhe8 31.Rxe8 Qxe8 32.f5
+/- (1.40) Depth: 20 00:16:22 744mN
17.b3 h5 18.f4 Ng4 19.exd5 Bxd5 20.Rhe1 Qc7 21.Bg2 Nxe3 22.Rxe3 0-0-0 23.Bxd5 exd5 24.Kb1 Nb6 25.Nxb6+ Qxb6 26.Nf5 Bc5 27.Re5 g6 28.Ne7+ Kb7 29.Nxd5 Qc6 30.Qd3 Rhe8 31.Rxe8 Qxe8 32.f5
+/- (1.40) Depth: 21 00:18:15 832mN
17.b3 h5 18.exd5 Bxd5 19.Bg2
+- (1.52 ++) Depth: 22 00:26:23 1179mN
17.b3 h5 18.exd5 Bxd5 19.Bg2
+- (1.67 ++) Depth: 22 00:48:21 2140mN


[Event "Petroff Mem Open"]
[Site "St Petersburg RUS"]
[Date "2000.??.??"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Solovjov, S."]
[Black "Pavlov, Al"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B90"]
[WhiteElo "2449"]
[BlackElo "2311"]
[PlyCount "108"]
[EventDate "2000.??.??"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be3 Ng4 7. Bc1 Nf6 8. f3
e6 9. Be3 b5 10. Qd2 Bb7 11. O-O-O Nbd7 12. g4 h6 13. h4 b4 14. Na4 d5 15. Bh3
Ne5 16. g5 Nfd7 17. g6 Nxg6 18. f4 Qa5 19. b3 Nf6 20. exd5 Bxd5 21. f5 Nxh4 22.
fxe6 Be7 23. Qf2 g5 24. Nf5 Nxf5 25. Qxf5 Rc8 26. Rhf1 Rc6 27. Bd4 Qc7 28. Bxf6
Bxe6 29. Qe4 Bxh3 30. Bxe7 Re6 31. Qa8+ Kxe7 32. Rxf7+ Kxf7 33. Qxh8 Bf5 34. c4
Qf4+ 35. Kb2 Re2+ 36. Ka1 Qf2 37. Nb2 Re1 38. Qd8 Rxd1+ 39. Qxd1 Qc2 40. Qd5+
Kg6 41. Qc6+ Kh5 42. Qh1+ Kg4 43. Qg1+ Kf3 44. Qh1+ Kf4 45. Qf1+ Ke5 46. Qe1+
Kf6 47. Qh1 h5 48. Qc6+ Ke5 49. Qd5+ Kf4 50. Qd4+ Kf3 51. Qg1 g4 52. c5 g3 53.
c6 Qb1+ 54. Qxb1 Bxb1 0-1
It appears that b3 may be a viable alternative.
I still suspect that f4 is better.

My custom Zappa II Dissident Aggressor settings give this, intetresting but most likeky insane!


New game
r2qkb1r/1b1n1pp1/p3p2p/3pn1P1/Np1NP2P/4BP1B/PPPQ4/2KR3R w kq - 0 1

Analysis by Zappa Mexico II:

1.b3 dxe4 2.f4 Nd3+ 3.cxd3 hxg5 4.hxg5 Rc8+ 5.Kb2 Nc5 6.g6 Nxa4+ 7.bxa4
² (0.62) Depth: 13 00:00:00
1.b3 Qa5 2.Kb1 0-0-0 3.g6 Nxg6 4.Nxe6 fxe6 5.Bxe6 Qc7 6.Bf5 Kb8 7.Bxg6 Bc6 8.Qd3 Bxa4 9.Qxa6
+- (2.49) Depth: 14/47 00:00:08 27372kN
1.b3 Qa5 2.Kb1 0-0-0 3.g6 Nxg6 4.Nxe6 fxe6 5.Bxe6 Qc7 6.Bf5 Kb8 7.Bxg6 Bc6 8.Qd3 Bxa4 9.Qxa6
+- (2.49) Depth: 14/47 00:00:40 128565kN
1.b3 Qa5 2.Kb1 0-0-0 3.g6 Nxg6 4.Nxe6 fxe6 5.Bxe6 Kb8 6.Qh2+ Nge5 7.Bxd7 Bd6 8.Bb6 Nc4 9.bxc4 Bxh2 10.Bxa5 Rxd7 11.Rxh2
+- (2.58) Depth: 15/49 00:01:03 201581kN
1.b3 Qa5 2.Kb1 0-0-0 3.g6 Nxg6 4.Nxe6 fxe6 5.Bxe6 Kb8 6.Qh2+ Nge5 7.Bxd7 Bd6 8.Bb6 Nc4 9.bxc4 Bxh2 10.Bxa5 Rxd7 11.Rxh2
+- (2.58) Depth: 15/49 00:01:27 274284kN
1.b3 h5 2.Bxe6 Nc5 3.Bxf7+ Nxf7 4.Nxc5 Bxc5 5.Ne6 Bxe3 6.Nxg7+ Kf8 7.Ne6+ Kg8 8.Qxe3 Qc8 9.g6 Ne5 10.Nc5 Qc7
+- (2.65) Depth: 16/51 00:03:26 650582kN
1.b3 h5 2.Bxe6 Nc5 3.Bxf7+ Nxf7 4.Nxc5 Bxc5 5.Ne6 Bxe3 6.Nxg7+ Kf8 7.Ne6+ Kg8 8.Qxe3 Qc8 9.g6 Ne5 10.Nc5 Qc7
+- (2.65) Depth: 16/51 00:04:19 807957kN

(, Microsoft 14.12.2010)
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Robert Flesher
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:06 am

Re: How long until your favorite engine finds f4?

Post by Robert Flesher »

yanquis1972 wrote:the main idea seems to be whether b3 is too slow or not. i doubt that it is. in most of these kind of sicilian positions white just has a massive advantage imo. a solid najdorf is really the only option for black. if white pushes pawns, develops & castles, as here, it's game over for black. the dragon has been theoretically dead since the 70s imo. blacks sole threat here is an advanced b pawn with the king stuck in the center. its up to white to find the resources to take advantage of that & i doubt f4 is the only one.

It is your opinion and I will acknowledge that, however, it is clearly wrong. The dragon still takes many scalpes, infact a good friend of mine obtained his postal GM title with Dragon. Even Kasparov himself used it when he defeated Anand in 1995, so if the highest rated player of all time thinks it was viable, you get my point. Capiche ?
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yanquis1972
Posts: 1766
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:14 am

Re: How long until your favorite engine finds f4?

Post by yanquis1972 »

dragon discussion aside for a moment as i mean to catch the end of the london classic.

critter's top 6 moves overnight analysis --

[+1.88] d=26 1.b3 hxg5 2.hxg5 dxe4 3.f4 Rxh3 4.Rxh3 Ng6 5.Kb1 Qc7 6.f5 exf5 7.Nxf5 Rd8 8.Rh7 Nde5 9.Qxd8 Qxd8 10.Nxg7 Bxg7 11.Rxd8 Kxd8 12.Rxg7 Bc6 13.Bc5 Nf4 14.Bd6 e3 15.Nc5 e2 16.Rg8 Be8 17.Nb7 Kd7 18.Bxb4 Ne6 19.Nd6 Nc6 20.Bc3 Kxd6 21.Rxe8 Kd7 22.Rg8 Ne5 (10:48:31) 326856632kN
[+1.82] d=26 1.f4 Nc4 2.Qe2 Qa5 3.b3 hxg5 4.hxg5 Nc5 5.g6 Nxa4 6.gxf7 Kxf7 7.Bxe6 Ke7 8.exd5 Nc3 9.Qxc4 Rxh1 10.Rxh1 Bxd5 11.Bxd5 Qxd5 12.Qc7 Kf6 13.Rg1 Qc5 14.Rxg7 Qxc7 15.Rxc7 Nxa2 16.Kd2 Nc3 17.Rc6 Kf7 18.Ne6 Nd5 19.f5 Nxe3 20.Ng5 (10:48:31) 326856632kN
[+1.52] d=26 1.Rhe1 Qa5 2.exd5 Bxd5 3.b3 Rd8 4.f4 Nc5 5.Nxe6 Bxe6 6.Qxd8 Qxd8 7.Rxd8 Kxd8 8.Bxc5 Nd7 9.Bxe6 Nxc5 10.Bxf7 Nxa4 11.Re8 Kd7 12.bxa4 hxg5 13.hxg5 Rh1 14.Kb2 Bc5 15.f5 Rh3 16.Re4 (12:06:25) 365697350kN
[+1.56] d=25 1.Kb1 hxg5 2.Bxg5 Nf6 3.Qh2 Bd6 4.f4 Qc7 5.Bxf6 gxf6 6.fxe5 fxe5 7.Nxe6 fxe6 8.Bxe6 d4 9.Qg2 Ke7 10.Bb3 Raf8 11.h5 Kd8 12.h6 Bc6 13.Rdf1 Qh7 (8:38:43) 260818199kN
[+1.31] d=25 1.exd5 Bxd5 2.Rhe1 Qc7 3.Qf2 hxg5 4.Bxg5 Be7 5.Bxe7 Kxe7 6.f4 Ng6 7.Qg1 Kf8 8.f5 exf5 9.Bxf5 Nde5 10.Nb6 Qxb6 11.Ne6 Qxe6 12.Bxe6 Bxe6 13.Qc5 Kg8 14.Rxe5 Nxe5 15.Qxe5 Rxh4 16.Rg1 Rh7 17.Qa5 Rc8 18.Qxb4 Rh2 19.c3 Bf5 20.Qb6 g6 21.Re1 (8:38:43) 260818199kN
[+1.24] d=25 1.g6 Nxg6 2.Nxe6 fxe6 3.Bxe6 Nde5 4.exd5 Qf6 5.Nc5 Bxc5 6.Bxc5 Rd8 7.Qxb4 Qf4 8.Qxf4 Nxf4 9.Rhe1 Nxf3 10.Bc8 Nxe1 11.Rxe1 Kf7 12.Bxb7 Nxd5 13.Re5 Nf6 14.Re7 Kg6 15.Bxa6 Rd7 16.Re1 Ra8 17.Bb5 (8:54:05) 268631331kN
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Dann Corbit
Posts: 12541
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA

Re: How long until your favorite engine finds f4?

Post by Dann Corbit »

yanquis1972 wrote:dragon discussion aside for a moment as i mean to catch the end of the london classic.

critter's top 6 moves overnight analysis --

[+1.88] d=26 1.b3 hxg5 2.hxg5 dxe4 3.f4 Rxh3 4.Rxh3 Ng6 5.Kb1 Qc7 6.f5 exf5 7.Nxf5 Rd8 8.Rh7 Nde5 9.Qxd8 Qxd8 10.Nxg7 Bxg7 11.Rxd8 Kxd8 12.Rxg7 Bc6 13.Bc5 Nf4 14.Bd6 e3 15.Nc5 e2 16.Rg8 Be8 17.Nb7 Kd7 18.Bxb4 Ne6 19.Nd6 Nc6 20.Bc3 Kxd6 21.Rxe8 Kd7 22.Rg8 Ne5 (10:48:31) 326856632kN
[+1.82] d=26 1.f4 Nc4 2.Qe2 Qa5 3.b3 hxg5 4.hxg5 Nc5 5.g6 Nxa4 6.gxf7 Kxf7 7.Bxe6 Ke7 8.exd5 Nc3 9.Qxc4 Rxh1 10.Rxh1 Bxd5 11.Bxd5 Qxd5 12.Qc7 Kf6 13.Rg1 Qc5 14.Rxg7 Qxc7 15.Rxc7 Nxa2 16.Kd2 Nc3 17.Rc6 Kf7 18.Ne6 Nd5 19.f5 Nxe3 20.Ng5 (10:48:31) 326856632kN
[+1.52] d=26 1.Rhe1 Qa5 2.exd5 Bxd5 3.b3 Rd8 4.f4 Nc5 5.Nxe6 Bxe6 6.Qxd8 Qxd8 7.Rxd8 Kxd8 8.Bxc5 Nd7 9.Bxe6 Nxc5 10.Bxf7 Nxa4 11.Re8 Kd7 12.bxa4 hxg5 13.hxg5 Rh1 14.Kb2 Bc5 15.f5 Rh3 16.Re4 (12:06:25) 365697350kN
[+1.56] d=25 1.Kb1 hxg5 2.Bxg5 Nf6 3.Qh2 Bd6 4.f4 Qc7 5.Bxf6 gxf6 6.fxe5 fxe5 7.Nxe6 fxe6 8.Bxe6 d4 9.Qg2 Ke7 10.Bb3 Raf8 11.h5 Kd8 12.h6 Bc6 13.Rdf1 Qh7 (8:38:43) 260818199kN
[+1.31] d=25 1.exd5 Bxd5 2.Rhe1 Qc7 3.Qf2 hxg5 4.Bxg5 Be7 5.Bxe7 Kxe7 6.f4 Ng6 7.Qg1 Kf8 8.f5 exf5 9.Bxf5 Nde5 10.Nb6 Qxb6 11.Ne6 Qxe6 12.Bxe6 Bxe6 13.Qc5 Kg8 14.Rxe5 Nxe5 15.Qxe5 Rxh4 16.Rg1 Rh7 17.Qa5 Rc8 18.Qxb4 Rh2 19.c3 Bf5 20.Qb6 g6 21.Re1 (8:38:43) 260818199kN
[+1.24] d=25 1.g6 Nxg6 2.Nxe6 fxe6 3.Bxe6 Nde5 4.exd5 Qf6 5.Nc5 Bxc5 6.Bxc5 Rd8 7.Qxb4 Qf4 8.Qxf4 Nxf4 9.Rhe1 Nxf3 10.Bc8 Nxe1 11.Rxe1 Kf7 12.Bxb7 Nxd5 13.Re5 Nf6 14.Re7 Kg6 15.Bxa6 Rd7 16.Re1 Ra8 17.Bb5 (8:54:05) 268631331kN
You're right. It's not a good test position, as several moves are nearly the same value.
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Dann Corbit
Posts: 12541
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA

Re: How long until your favorite engine finds f4?

Post by Dann Corbit »

Here is Stockfish:

Code: Select all

3)                      
    Avoid move: 
    Best move (Stockfish-191-64-ja): b2-b3
    Not found in: 2:00:00
      2	00:00	      36.081	1.336.333	+0.84	f3f4 Ne5c4
      3	00:00	      37.467	1.338.107	-0.84	f3f4 Ne5c4 Qd2e2 Nc4xe3 Qe2xe3 d5xe4
      3	00:00	      37.831	1.304.517	+0.72	g5xh6 g7xh6 f3f4
      4	00:00	      38.916	1.297.200	+0.28	g5xh6 g7xh6 f3f4 Ne5c4
      4	00:00	      40.407	1.303.451	+0.68	e4xd5 Ne5c4 Qd2d3 Bb7xd5
      5	00:00	      44.936	1.321.647	+0.04	e4xd5 Bb7xd5 Kc1b1 Ne5c4 Qd2c1 Nc4xe3 Qc1xe3 h6xg5 h4xg5
      5	00:00	      49.045	1.290.657	+0.36	Bh3xe6 d5xe4 f3f4 f7xe6 Nd4xe6
      6-	00:00	      52.136	1.336.820	-0.05	Bh3xe6 Ne5c4 Be6xd7+ Qd8xd7
      6	00:00	      53.431	1.335.775	+0.04	e4xd5 Bb7xd5 Kc1b1 Ne5c4 Qd2c1 Nc4xe3 Qc1xe3 h6xg5 h4xg5
      7	00:00	      79.560	958.554	-0.04	e4xd5 Bb7xd5 Kc1b1 Ne5c4 Qd2c1 Nc4xe3 Qc1xe3 h6xg5 Nd4xe6 Bd5xe6 Bh3xe6 f7xe6 Qe3xe6+ Qd8e7
      8	00:00	     103.791	1.027.633	-0.04	e4xd5 Bb7xd5 Kc1b1 Ne5c4 Qd2c1 Nc4xe3 Qc1xe3 h6xg5 Nd4xe6 Bd5xe6 Bh3xe6 f7xe6 Qe3xe6+ Qd8e7
      9	00:00	     127.619	1.063.491	-0.04	e4xd5 Bb7xd5 Kc1b1 Ne5c4 Qd2c1 Nc4xe3 Qc1xe3 h6xg5 Nd4xe6 Bd5xe6 Bh3xe6 f7xe6 Qe3xe6+ Qd8e7
      9+	00:00	     154.154	1.150.402	+0.04	Kc1b1 d5xe4 f3xe4 Bb7xe4 g5g6
      9+	00:00	     157.598	1.094.430	+0.12	Kc1b1 d5xe4 f3xe4 Bb7xe4 g5g6
      9+	00:00	     180.962	1.131.012	+0.28	Kc1b1 d5xe4 f3xe4 Bb7xe4 Rh1f1
      9	00:00	     184.310	1.103.652	+0.28	Kc1b1 d5xe4 f3xe4 Bb7xe4 Rh1f1 Qd8a5 g5g6 Be4xg6 Nd4xe6 f7xe6
     10-	00:00	     266.987	1.308.759	-0.04	Kc1b1 d5xe4 f3xe4 Bb7xe4 Rh1f1 Be4d5 Qd2e2 h6xg5 Be3xg5 Qd8a5
     10	00:00	     513.377	1.683.203	+0.16	Kc1b1 Ne5c4 Qd2e2 Nc4xe3 Qe2xe3 h6xg5 Bh3xe6 d5xe4 Be6f5 Rh8xh4 f3xe4 Rh4xh1 Rd1xh1
     11-	00:00	     668.262	1.856.283	-0.12	Kc1b1 d5xe4 f3xe4 Bb7xe4 Rh1e1 Be4d5 Qd2f2 Qd8a5 b2b3 OOO
     11+	00:00	   1.053.499	2.199.371	+0.44	Qd2g2 h6xg5 h4xg5 d5xe4 f3xe4 Qd8a5 g5g6 Ne5xg6 Nd4xe6 Qa5xa4 Ne6c7+
     11	00:00	   1.146.886	2.218.348	+0.12	Qd2g2 h6xg5 h4xg5 d5xe4 g5g6 e4xf3 g6xf7+ Ne5xf7 Qg2g4 Nd7f6 Qg4xe6+ Qd8e7 Na4b6 Qe7xe6 Bh3xe6 Rh8xh1 Rd1xh1
     12+	00:00	   1.420.485	2.351.796	+0.24	Qd2g2 h6xg5 h4xg5 d5xe4 g5g6 e4xf3 g6xf7+ Ne5xf7 Qg2g4 Nd7f6 Qg4xe6+ Qd8e7 Na4b6 Qe7xe6 Nd4xe6
     12+	00:00	   1.491.989	2.360.742	+0.36	Qd2g2 h6xg5 h4xg5 d5xe4 g5g6 e4xf3 g6xf7+ Ne5xf7 Qg2g4 Nd7f6 Qg4xe6+ Qd8e7 Na4b6 Qe7xe6 Nd4xe6
     12	00:00	   1.857.967	2.538.206	+0.48	Qd2g2 Qd8a5 g5g6 f7f5 b2b3 d5xe4 f3f4 Ne5c4 b3xc4 Qa5xa4 Kc1b1 Bf8c5 Nd4xe6 Bc5xe3 Ne6xg7+ Ke8d8 Ng7e6+ Kd8c8 Bh3xf5
     13	00:01	   3.087.160	2.934.562	+0.40	Qd2g2 g7g6 Kc1b1 Ne5c4 Be3c1 Qd8a5 b2b3 d5xe4 f3xe4 Nc4d6 Nd4f3 Nd6xe4 Bc1b2 Ne4c3+ Na4xc3 b4xc3
     14	00:01	   4.331.526	2.979.041	+0.44	Qd2g2 g7g6 Kc1b1 d5xe4 f3xe4 Qd8a5 b2b3 h6xg5 Be3xg5 Bf8h6 Bg5xh6 Rh8xh6 Bh3xe6 f7xe6 Nd4xe6 Ke8f7 Qg2g5 Kf7xe6 Qg5xh6 Bb7xe4 Rh1e1
     15+	00:02	   6.914.196	3.270.669	+0.52	Qd2g2 g7g6 h4h5 Qd8a5 h5xg6 Ne5xg6 b2b3 d5xe4 Nd4xe6 e4xf3 Qg2d2
     15+	00:02	   7.620.358	3.329.121	+0.60	Qd2g2 d5xe4 g5g6 e4xf3 g6xf7+ Ne5xf7 Qg2f2 Qd8a5 Nd4xe6 Qa5xa4 Ne6c7+
     15+	00:02	   8.788.294	3.403.676	+0.76	Qd2g2 h6xg5 h4xg5 d5xe4 g5g6 e4xf3 g6xf7+ Ne5xf7 Qg2g4 Nd7f6 Qg4xe6+ Qd8e7 Na4b6 Qe7xe6 Nd4xe6
     15	00:02	  10.159.446	3.482.840	+0.72	Qd2g2 h6xg5 h4xg5 g7g6 e4xd5 Bb7xd5 Bh3xe6 Rh8xh1 Be6xd5 Rh1xd1+ Kc1xd1 Ra8c8 f3f4 Ne5c4 Be3f2 Qd8e7 Bd5xc4 Rc8xc4 Qg2a8+ Qe7d8 Qa8xa6 Qd8c7 Qa6a8+ Qc7b8 Qa8e4+ Bf8e7
     16	00:05	  17.785.967	3.507.388	+0.68	Qd2g2 g7g6 b2b3 d5xe4 f3xe4 h6xg5 Be3xg5 Bf8h6 Bh3xe6 f7xe6 Nd4xe6 Bh6xg5+ h4xg5 Rh8xh1 Qg2xh1 Qd8a5 Qh1h7 Bb7xe4 Kc1b1 Be4f5
     17	00:06	  24.396.125	3.643.932	+0.72	Qd2g2 h6xg5 h4xg5 d5xe4 g5g6 e4xf3 g6xf7+ Ke8xf7 Qg2g3 Rh8xh3 Rh1xh3 Qd8a5 Qg3f4+ Nd7f6 Rh3h5 Qa5xa4 Qf4xe5 Bb7d5 Rh5h3 f3f2 Be3xf2 Qa4xa2 Qe5c7+ Bf8e7
     18+	00:09	  32.146.000	3.503.651	+0.80	Qd2g2 h6xg5 h4xg5 d5xe4 g5g6 e4xf3 g6xf7+ Ke8xf7 Qg2g3 Rh8xh3 Rh1xh3 Qd8a5 b2b3 Nd7f6 Rd1g1 Kf7e7 Na4b6 Ne5d3+ c2xd3 Qa5xb6 Nd4f5+
     18+	00:10	  35.988.942	3.584.913	+0.88	Qd2g2 d5xe4 g5g6 e4xf3 g6xf7+ Ne5xf7 Qg2f2 Qd8a5 Nd4xe6 Qa5xa4 Ne6c7+
     18+	00:12	  44.833.135	3.616.742	+1.05	Qd2g2 d5xe4 g5g6 e4xf3 g6xf7+ Ne5xf7 Qg2f2 Qd8a5 Nd4xe6 Qa5xa4 Ne6c7+
     18	00:15	  58.215.209	3.754.366	+0.88	Qd2g2 h6xg5 h4xg5 Qd8a5 g5g6 Ne5xg6 Nd4xe6 Qa5xa4 Ne6c7+ Ke8d8 Nc7xa8 Bb7xa8 Kc1b1 Qa4b5 Be3g5+ Kd8c8 Qg2d2 f7f6 Bg5e3 Bf8c5 Be3xc5 Qb5xc5 e4xd5 Ba8b7 Bh3e6
     19	00:19	  74.557.501	3.814.268	+0.92	Qd2g2 h6xg5 h4xg5 Qd8a5 g5g6 Ne5xg6 Nd4xe6 Qa5xa4 Ne6c7+ Ke8d8 Nc7xa8 Bb7xa8 Kc1b1 Qa4b5 Be3g5+ Kd8c7 Qg2g4 Rh8xh3 Rh1xh3 Nd7e5 Qg4g1 f7f6 Bg5c1 Bf8c5 Bc1e3 Qb5d7
     20-	00:23	  88.318.449	3.838.430	+0.80	Qd2g2 h6xg5 h4xg5 Qd8a5 g5g6 Ne5xg6 Nd4xe6 Qa5xa4 Ne6c7+ Ke8d8 Nc7xa8 Bb7xa8 Kc1b1 Qa4b5 Be3g5+ Kd8c8 Qg2d2 f7f6 Bg5e3 Rh8xh3 Rh1xh3 d5xe4 f3xe4 Ba8xe4
     20	00:28	 109.755.515	3.828.636	+0.84	Qd2g2 h6xg5 h4xg5 Qd8a5 g5g6 Ne5xg6 Nd4xe6 Qa5xa4 Ne6c7+ Ke8d8 Nc7xd5 Bb7xd5 Rd1xd5 Rh8xh3 Qg2xh3 Kd8e8 Kc1b1 Nd7f6 Rd5d1 Qa4c6 Qh3f5 Ra8d8 Rd1xd8+ Ke8xd8 Rh1d1+ Kd8e8 Qf5g5
     21+	00:36	 145.055.756	3.924.350	+0.96	Qd2g2 h6xg5 h4xg5 Qd8a5 g5g6 Ne5xg6 Nd4xe6 Qa5xa4 Ne6c7+ Ke8d8 Nc7xd5 Bb7xd5 Rd1xd5 Rh8xh3 Qg2xh3 Kd8e8 Kc1b1 Nd7f6 Rd5d2 Qa4c6 Rh1d1 Bf8c5 Be3g5 Ke8f8 Rd2d8+ Ra8xd8 Rd1xd8+
     21	00:38	 149.683.501	3.935.104	+0.76	Qd2g2 h6xg5 h4xg5 Qd8a5 g5g6 Ne5xg6 Nd4xe6 Qa5xa4 Ne6c7+ Ke8d8 Nc7xd5 Bb7xd5 Rd1xd5 Rh8xh3 Qg2xh3 Kd8e8 Kc1b1 Nd7f6 Rd5d2 Qa4c6 Rh1d1 Bf8c5 Be3g5 Ke8f8 Rd2d8+ Ra8xd8 Rd1xd8+ Nf6e8 Rd8c8
     22+	00:59	 234.637.058	3.954.046	+0.88	Qd2g2 h6xg5 h4xg5 Qd8a5 g5g6 Ne5xg6 Nd4xe6 Qa5xa4 Ne6c7+ Ke8d8 Nc7xd5 Bb7xd5 Rd1xd5 Rh8xh3 Qg2xh3 Kd8e8 Kc1b1 Nd7f6 Rd5d2 Qa4c6 Rh1d1 Bf8c5 Be3g5 Ke8f8 Rd2d8+ Ra8xd8 Rd1xd8+ Nf6e8 Qh3d7
     22+	01:08	 273.166.678	3.962.785	+1.01	Qd2g2 Ne5c4 g5g6 Nc4xe3 g6xf7+ Ke8xf7 Bh3xe6+ Kf7e7 Qg2d2
     22-	01:20	 318.759.587	3.957.190	+0.64	Qd2g2 h6xg5 h4xg5 Qd8a5 g5g6 Ne5xg6 Nd4xe6 Qa5xa4 Ne6c7+ Ke8d8 Nc7xd5 Rh8xh3 Be3b6+ Kd8c8 Qg2xh3 Bb7xd5 Rd1xd5 Ng6f4
     22	01:39	 384.365.584	3.851.088	+0.96	Qd2g2 h6xg5 h4xg5 Qd8a5 g5g6 Ne5xg6 Nd4xe6 Qa5xa4 Ne6c7+ Ke8d8 Nc7xd5 Rh8xh3 Qg2xh3 Bb7xd5 Rd1xd5 Kd8e8 Kc1b1 Nd7f6 Rd5d2 Qa4b5 Be3d4 Bf8e7 Bd4xf6 Be7xf6 Rd2d5 Qb5a4 Rh1d1
     23-	01:50	 426.980.317	3.877.479	+0.72	Qd2g2 h6xg5 h4xg5 Qd8a5 g5g6 Ne5xg6 Nd4xe6 Qa5xa4 Ne6c7+ Ke8d8 Nc7xd5 Rh8xh3 Qg2xh3 Bb7xd5 Rd1xd5 Kd8e8 Kc1b1 Nd7f6 Rd5d2 Qa4b5 Be3d4 Bf8e7 Bd4xf6 Be7xf6 Rd2d5 Qb5a4 Rh1d1 Ke8f8
     23	02:29	 577.570.798	3.868.188	+0.60	Qd2g2 h6xg5 h4xg5 Qd8a5 g5g6 Ne5xg6 Nd4xe6 Qa5xa4 Ne6c7+ Ke8d8 Nc7xa8 Bb7xa8 Kc1b1 Qa4b5 Be3g5+ Kd8c8 e4xd5 Ba8xd5 Qg2d2 Rh8xh3 Rh1xh3 Bd5e6 Rh3h1 Kc8b7 Bg5e3 Bf8c5 Be3xc5 Nd7xc5 Qd2d4
     24	04:10	 987.026.598	3.938.952	+0.52	Qd2g2 h6xg5 h4xg5 Qd8a5 g5g6 Ne5xg6 Nd4xe6 Qa5xa4 Ne6c7+ Ke8d8 Nc7xa8 Bb7xa8 Kc1b1 Qa4b5 Be3g5+ Kd8c8 e4xd5 Ba8xd5 Qg2d2 Rh8xh3 Rh1xh3 Bd5e6 Rh3g3 Kc8b7 Bg5e3 Qb5a5 b2b3 Qa5c7 Rg3g1 Qc7c6 f3f4 Qc6e4
     25+	09:33	2.310.064,064	4.029.291	+0.80	Qd2g2 h6xg5 h4xg5 Qd8a5 g5g6 Ne5xg6 Nd4xe6 Qa5xa4 Ne6c7+ Ke8d8 Nc7xa8 Bb7xa8 Kc1b1 Qa4b5 Qg2g3 Qb5b8 Qg3g5+ Bf8e7 Qg5f5 Nd7f6 e4e5 Ng6xe5 Be3a7 Qb8b7 Ba7b6+ Kd8e8 Qf5xe5 Rh8xh3 Rh1xh3 Qb7xb6 Qe5d4
     25	10:05	2.444.533,103	4.040.508	+0.68	Qd2g2 h6xg5 h4xg5 Qd8a5 g5g6 Ne5xg6 Nd4xe6 Qa5xa4 Ne6c7+ Ke8d8 Nc7xa8 Bb7xa8 Kc1b1 Qa4b5 e4xd5 Ba8xd5 Qg2d2 Bd5e6 Bh3xe6 f7xe6 Be3g5+ Kd8c8 Rh1xh8 Ng6xh8 Qd2f4 Bf8c5 Rd1h1 Nh8g6 Qf4e4 Ng6e5 Rh1h8+ Kc8c7 Bg5d8+ Kc7d6 Rh8h1 Ne5c6 Rh1d1+ Bc5d4 Rd1xd4+ Nc6xd4 Qe4xd4+ Kd6c6 b2b3 Qb5f1+
     25+	12:41	3.093.356,816	4.062.718	+1.09	b2b3 d5xe4 f3f4 h6xg5 f4xe5 g5g4 Bh3xg4 Nd7xe5 Bg4e2 Bf8e7 Kc1b1 OO Be3g5 Ne5f3 Nd4xf3 e4xf3 Qd2e3
     25+	15:03	3.706.352,602	4.100.886	+1.65	b2b3 d5xe4 f3f4 h6xg5 f4xe5 Nd7xe5 h4xg5 Rh8h4 Kc1b1
     25	22:15	5.510.116,166	4.125.374	+1.81	b2b3 h6xg5 h4xg5 d5xe4 f3f4 Rh8xh3 Rh1xh3 Ne5g4 Rh3h8 Ng4xe3 Qd2xe3 g7g6 Nd4e2 Ra8c8 Qe3d4 Qd8c7 c2c4 b4xc3/ep Qd4xd7+ Qc7xd7 Rh8xf8+
     26	24:24	6.053.354,564	4.133.603	+2.14	b2b3 h6xg5 h4xg5 d5xe4 f3f4 Rh8xh3 Rh1xh3 Ne5g4 Rh3h8 Ng4xe3 Qd2xe3 g7g6 Nd4e2 Qd8e7 Kc1b1 Ra8c8 Qe3d4 Bb7c6 Ne2g3 e6e5 f4xe5 Qe7xe5 Qd4xe5+ Nd7xe5 Rd1e1 Ne5f3 Ng3xe4 Nf3xe1 Ne4d6+ Ke8d7 Nd6xc8 Bf8d6 Na4b6+ Kd7e6 Nc8xd6 Ke6xd6 Nb6c4+ Kd6e7 Nc4d2 Ke7e6 Rh8b8
     27	28:32	7.075.775,025	4.130.817	+1.97	b2b3 h6xg5 h4xg5 d5xe4 f3f4 Rh8xh3 Rh1xh3 Ne5g6 Rh3h7 Ng6e7 Qd2xb4 Qd8c7 Qb4c3 Qc7xc3 Na4xc3 OOO a2a4 e6e5 f4xe5 Nd7xe5 Rd1f1 Ne5f3 Nd4xf3 e4xf3 Be3b6 Rd8e8 Bb6c5
     28+	41:40	10.543.584,324	4.216.707	+2.30	b2b3 h6xg5 h4xg5 d5xe4 f3f4 Rh8xh3 Rh1xh3
     28	42:49	10.843.528,988	4.219.726	+2.18	b2b3 h6xg5 h4xg5 d5xe4 f3f4 Rh8xh3 Rh1xh3 Ne5g6 Rh3h7 Ng6e7 Qd2xb4 Qd8c7 Qb4c3 Qc7xc3 Na4xc3 e6e5 f4xe5 Nd7xe5 Rd1e1 OOO Re1d1 Rd8e8 Be3f4 Ne7g6 Bf4g3 Re8d8 Nd4f5 Ne5f3 Rd1xd8+ Kc8xd8 Nf5d6 Bf8xd6 Bg3xd6 Kd8d7
     29	51:19	13.139.257,167	4.266.444	+2.26	b2b3 h6xg5 h4xg5 d5xe4 f3f4 Rh8xh3 Rh1xh3 Ne5g6 Rh3h7 Ng6e7 Qd2xb4 Qd8c7 Qb4c3 Qc7xc3 Na4xc3 e6e5 f4xe5 Nd7xe5 Be3g1 Ra8d8 Rd1f1 Ke8d7 Rf1e1 Kd7c8 Kc1b2 Ne7g6 Bg1e3 Ng6e7 Re1f1 Ne5f3 Nd4xf3 e4xf3 Be3b6
     30-	1:31:41	23.929.938,498	4.349.793	+2.06	b2b3 h6h5
   12/14/2010 1:38:54 AM, Time for this analysis: 02:00:00, Rated time: 6:00:00
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Stephen Ham
Posts: 2488
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:40 pm
Location: Eden Prairie, Minnesota
Full name: Stephen Ham

Re: How long until your favorite engine finds f4?

Post by Stephen Ham »

yanquis1972 wrote:hi stephen --

i read your pieces about your games vs fritz 6 and nimzo 8 some time ago & they were very impressive & a brave undertaking. i believe you brought out the dragon in at least one of those games, possibly more, & may've been punished for it even then...i believe the yugoslav gives white a massive advantage & if you'd like to play a casual correspondence game in that line i would be happy to be proven wrong. i see the dragon as a weapon to be brought out against inferior opposition or as a surprise & nothing more....i genuinely believe it loses. realize this is a tangent from the thread but i think the sicilian has become overrated amongst non super GM players. even in a hyper-advanced correspondence game on the rybka forum, we saw it lose to the wing gambit...it's risky for black, & the dragon specifcally is suicide against ultraprecise play. but you seem to be getting away with it, & i'd love for you to demonstrate why.
Hello John,

I have already demonstrated why, many times! Pull my games up at the ICCF and you'll see my Dragon results (victories and draws) versus some of the highest-rated players in the world.

Normally I'd be happy to accept your request for a game, John. But I already have a game load of 24-games at present versus GMs and SIMs. So, I don't have the time and nothing to gain either.

While you have every right to your opinions, I think you're seriously wrong about both the Dragon and the value of the Wing Gambit. And I disagree with your Najdorf comments too. :)

If you had the ability to defeat the Sicilian, let alone the Dragon and Najdorf, then the world would beat a path to your door. But since that's not happening, then your claims are unproven and certainly spurious. Instead, the strongest OTB and Correspondence chess players play the Sicilian (including the Dragon and Najdorf) with excellent results. So the only one with the onus of supporting claims is you, John.

All the best,
Steve
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