Houdini 1.5 is released

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Terry McCracken
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Re: Houdini 1.5 is released

Post by Terry McCracken » Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:52 pm

Albert Silver wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Albert Silver wrote:
Nimzovik wrote:Thanks Mr. Houdart. Great engine.

Yikes. Mcaffee toolbar gives last posted site for download as questionable. I will wait till better site is provided.

Major :shock: Paranoid :shock: regards - :?
Just so you know, McAfee (together with Norton) is one of the record holders in false alerts.
I haven't any false alerts with Norton 2011.
I misquoted. Norton was not one of the top false alerts. McAfee is in the middle with a high number (three times more than Norton for example), but the kings of false alerts among well-known AVs are Panda and Kaspersky.
Oh...I learned about Panda....don't want that animal on my machine again. It's a very aggressive bear. They should remame it Grizzly. Hear Kaspersky is very good as a standalone AV but didn't know it threw out false positives so frequently.

For now I'll stay with Norton IS and Utilities.
Terry McCracken

Albert Silver
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Re: Houdini 1.5 is released

Post by Albert Silver » Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:58 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
Peter Skinner wrote:It is a clone. Do you honestly believe he took "ideas" from Ippolit, Crafty, Stockfish and wrote a 3200 engine from scratch in a few months?

Please tell me you aren't that blind to the fact of what Houdini is? If so, I have a hell of a deal on a bridge with a prime location in San Fransisco. Some would call it a "Golden" opportunity. Interested?

Peter
I do not believe that based on ideas from Ippolit,Crafty and stockfish he wrote a 3200 engine from scratch in a few months but we do not know when he started but only when he released the first version and these things may be different.

It is possible that he started some years ago to learn from crafty and from Glaurung and started to write his engine in 2006.

I do not claim that Houdini is not a derivative of Ippolit(I do not know) but you need a better argument to convince me that it is a derivative of Ippolit(I prefer the word derivative and not a clone when there is a clear strength improvement even if 99% of the code is the same).

Uri
Osipov declared it a clear Ippolit derivative, albeit with a number of changes especially at the eval level, after RE-ing it. Since you say you don't *know*, what do you sincerely *believe*? I ask because I find these declarations of not knowing because the person doesn't have irrefutable proof to be the most insincere cop-out there is. It is an excuse to look away even though the person actually believes one thing, but hides behind the "don't know with irrefutable proof" declaration, which (no offense meant to you Uri) is pathetic.

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt Houdart has put in a lot of work to achieve the improvements he did, which is another argument altogether, but I completely believe that he started with IPPO and that it is the foundation of 99% of its strength.
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."

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Houdini
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Re: Houdini 1.5 is released

Post by Houdini » Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:09 pm

Can I invite you all to continue your "derivative" discussion outside this Houdini release thread?

Please stop polluting this thread with a rehash of arguments that have been repeated ad nauseam before, you make it very difficult for other people to find useful information about the release.

Thank you.

Michael Sherwin
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Re: Houdini 1.5 is released

Post by Michael Sherwin » Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:13 pm

Peter Skinner wrote:Where is the source?

If you took ideas (and likely code) from Crafty, Stockfish, and the Ippolit family of engines, you have to publish the code.

Crafty's license states that any modification of the code _must_ be released and the copyright notice be left intact.

I would like to see just how much of Crafty is in the program.

Peter
Yes! I want to see the source also. I cannot complete my new engine Rybpolitoudinivanty with out it! :x
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Can the people ever change their ways
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Sherwin if it catches you you're through

Robert Flesher
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Re: Houdini 1.5 is released

Post by Robert Flesher » Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:35 pm

Albert Silver wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
Peter Skinner wrote:It is a clone. Do you honestly believe he took "ideas" from Ippolit, Crafty, Stockfish and wrote a 3200 engine from scratch in a few months?

Please tell me you aren't that blind to the fact of what Houdini is? If so, I have a hell of a deal on a bridge with a prime location in San Fransisco. Some would call it a "Golden" opportunity. Interested?

Peter
I do not believe that based on ideas from Ippolit,Crafty and stockfish he wrote a 3200 engine from scratch in a few months but we do not know when he started but only when he released the first version and these things may be different.

It is possible that he started some years ago to learn from crafty and from Glaurung and started to write his engine in 2006.

I do not claim that Houdini is not a derivative of Ippolit(I do not know) but you need a better argument to convince me that it is a derivative of Ippolit(I prefer the word derivative and not a clone when there is a clear strength improvement even if 99% of the code is the same).

Uri
Osipov declared it a clear Ippolit derivative, albeit with a number of changes especially at the eval level, after RE-ing it. Since you say you don't *know*, what do you sincerely *believe*? I ask because I find these declarations of not knowing because the person doesn't have irrefutable proof to be the most insincere cop-out there is. It is an excuse to look away even though the person actually believes one thing, but hides behind the "don't know with irrefutable proof" declaration, which (no offense meant to you Uri) is pathetic.

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt Houdart has put in a lot of work to achieve the improvements he did, which is another argument altogether, but I completely believe that he started with IPPO and that it is the foundation of 99% of its strength.


I have no doubt about what you are saying Albert. However, there is alot of evidence that Rybka was created the same way. The evidence clearly shows that Rybka 1.0 used alot of Fruit code. Then as time went on Rybka evolved and much changed.So we could use this same arguement, and say Rybka can be considered a Fruit derivative. The point being, it seems the way that Rybka and Houndini were given life are the same. Both used code and ideas from another engine(s).

However, there is a huge difference! Robert was honest and forthcoming with the origins of Houdini, explaining that he used other engines and their ideas. On the contrary, in his interview, when Vas was asked if Fruit played any role in the creation of Rybka , he answered clearly, NO! ( not verbatim). This of course is, "bullshit", and says lots about the man. Only after the BB report and Zak's report surfaced did he change his tune about parts of Fruit being used.

So with time one could postulate that Houndini will also evolve and be far more original. What most poeple have forgotten is this is about computer "CHESS", the emphasis on chess. And setting origins aside, and looking at the results of CHESS, Houndini is wiping his ass, with all the rest.

Uri Blass
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Re: Houdini 1.5 is released

Post by Uri Blass » Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:38 pm

Albert Silver wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
Peter Skinner wrote:It is a clone. Do you honestly believe he took "ideas" from Ippolit, Crafty, Stockfish and wrote a 3200 engine from scratch in a few months?

Please tell me you aren't that blind to the fact of what Houdini is? If so, I have a hell of a deal on a bridge with a prime location in San Fransisco. Some would call it a "Golden" opportunity. Interested?

Peter
I do not believe that based on ideas from Ippolit,Crafty and stockfish he wrote a 3200 engine from scratch in a few months but we do not know when he started but only when he released the first version and these things may be different.

It is possible that he started some years ago to learn from crafty and from Glaurung and started to write his engine in 2006.

I do not claim that Houdini is not a derivative of Ippolit(I do not know) but you need a better argument to convince me that it is a derivative of Ippolit(I prefer the word derivative and not a clone when there is a clear strength improvement even if 99% of the code is the same).

Uri
Osipov declared it a clear Ippolit derivative, albeit with a number of changes especially at the eval level, after RE-ing it. Since you say you don't *know*, what do you sincerely *believe*? I ask because I find these declarations of not knowing because the person doesn't have irrefutable proof to be the most insincere cop-out there is. It is an excuse to look away even though the person actually believes one thing, but hides behind the "don't know with irrefutable proof" declaration, which (no offense meant to you Uri) is pathetic.

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt Houdart has put in a lot of work to achieve the improvements he did, which is another argument altogether, but I completely believe that he started with IPPO and that it is the foundation of 99% of its strength.
I tend to believe Houdart.
He seems to me a honest man and I know that he did not use the nalimov tablebases because he did not get permission to use them.

He posted that there is no crafty code in Houdini and I believe him.

It is possible that I missed some post of him but
I did not see that he claimed that Houdini did not start from Ippolit
If he does not claim that Houdini did not start from Ippolit then I believe that Houdini started from Ippolit.

Edit:reading Robert Houdart last post I am not going to discuss this subject here in more posts and I also do not plan to reply here to posts about the question if rybka is a fruit derivative.
I think that they should be out of this subject.
Last edited by Uri Blass on Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Albert Silver
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Re: Houdini 1.5 is released

Post by Albert Silver » Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:42 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
Albert Silver wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
Peter Skinner wrote:It is a clone. Do you honestly believe he took "ideas" from Ippolit, Crafty, Stockfish and wrote a 3200 engine from scratch in a few months?

Please tell me you aren't that blind to the fact of what Houdini is? If so, I have a hell of a deal on a bridge with a prime location in San Fransisco. Some would call it a "Golden" opportunity. Interested?

Peter
I do not believe that based on ideas from Ippolit,Crafty and stockfish he wrote a 3200 engine from scratch in a few months but we do not know when he started but only when he released the first version and these things may be different.

It is possible that he started some years ago to learn from crafty and from Glaurung and started to write his engine in 2006.

I do not claim that Houdini is not a derivative of Ippolit(I do not know) but you need a better argument to convince me that it is a derivative of Ippolit(I prefer the word derivative and not a clone when there is a clear strength improvement even if 99% of the code is the same).

Uri
Osipov declared it a clear Ippolit derivative, albeit with a number of changes especially at the eval level, after RE-ing it. Since you say you don't *know*, what do you sincerely *believe*? I ask because I find these declarations of not knowing because the person doesn't have irrefutable proof to be the most insincere cop-out there is. It is an excuse to look away even though the person actually believes one thing, but hides behind the "don't know with irrefutable proof" declaration, which (no offense meant to you Uri) is pathetic.

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt Houdart has put in a lot of work to achieve the improvements he did, which is another argument altogether, but I completely believe that he started with IPPO and that it is the foundation of 99% of its strength.
I tend to believe Houdart.
He seems to me a honest man and I know that he did not use the nalimov tablebases because he did not get permission to use them.

He posted that there is no crafty code in Houdini and I believe him.

It is possible that I missed some post of him but
I did not see that he claimed that Houdini did not start from Ippolit
If he does not claim that Houdini did not start from Ippolit then I believe that Houdini started from Ippolit.
I never saw him claim it did not. Back when Jeremy was still a mod, he expressed frustration in this regard, because he felt Houdart was deliberately sidestepping this question (which pertained to sending the posts and announcements to the Chess Origins forum or not).
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."

Steve B
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Re: Houdini 1.5 is released

Post by Steve B » Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:36 pm

Several posts in this thread have been removed due to complaints and charter violations
if a post of yours is missing as a result of splitting the thread
we apolgize for the inconvience
members should refrain from making OT posts that have nothing to do with computer chess
Regards
Steve

gerold
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Re: Houdini 1.5 is released

Post by gerold » Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:58 pm

Steve B wrote:Several posts in this thread have been removed due to complaints and charter violations
if a post of yours is missing as a result of splitting the thread
we apolgize for the inconvience
members should refrain from making OT posts that have nothing to do with computer chess
Regards
Steve
28K views and counting. Happy the Mods didn't lock the thread because of a couple OT posts.

Best,
Gerold.

Milos
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Re: Houdini 1.5 is released

Post by Milos » Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:14 am

Steve B wrote:Several posts in this thread have been removed due to complaints and charter violations
if a post of yours is missing as a result of splitting the thread
we apolgize for the inconvience
members should refrain from making OT posts that have nothing to do with computer chess
So posts about Panda, Norton, McAfee, Kaspersky, etc. are not OT right?
Great job Steve, really great job...

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