Houdini is getting some wider press. Congratulations!

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bhlangonijr
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Re: Houdini is getting some wider press. Congratulations!

Post by bhlangonijr » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:20 pm

The Rybka-Houdini case here clearly demonstrates how harmful this kind of behaviour can be. ;)

It is funny when you see two groups of people fighting for something that is completely unrelated to them. That's essentially the same kind of behaviour shown by the collaborators of the Ippolit project. They write things that make it seem there is a war against the commercial authors ( the "capitalists"), that Rybka is the devil, etc. Well, but at least they are producing something. :)

Michel
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Re: Houdini is getting some wider press. Congratulations!

Post by Michel » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:36 pm

They write things that make it seem there is a war against the commercial authors ( the "capitalists"),
It think this is simply a big charade. Whatever you think of them, their website is hilarious :D

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Don
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Re: Houdini is getting some wider press. Congratulations!

Post by Don » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:49 pm

Michel wrote:
They write things that make it seem there is a war against the commercial authors ( the "capitalists"),
It think this is simply a big charade. Whatever you think of them, their website is hilarious :D
You may laugh, but that site resonates with a few of the members posting here - the same attitudes and arguments.

I don't believe that site is a charade - who would go that much effort just to get a laugh? They clearly have an axe to grind and they believe they are on some kind of righteous mission to make things right. They are extremists.

rbarreira
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Re: Houdini is getting some wider press. Congratulations!

Post by rbarreira » Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:02 pm

Don wrote:
michiguel wrote:
Don wrote:
gerold wrote:
Don wrote:
bhlangonijr wrote:
Don wrote: I just don't understand why people attach so much of their own self-worth to an achievement they had nothing to do with. Don't you have something of your own to take pride in?
This is an euphemism for: "Dude, get a life." :lol:

That phenomenon is an interesting side of the human nature. It is very often associated with some level of fanatism as commonly found in some fundamentalist religious people and also in football supporters.
It's odd that you mention football because I almost included an anecdote about this. Years ago an acquaintance of mine was depressed for about 2 weeks because his football team lost the super bowl. I just can't imagine how such a thing can mean so much to someone who seemed to take the loss as a personal failing on his own part. Had "his" team won he would have been flying high and probably would have felt like he was superior to everyone else for a couple of weeks.
May be he bet the family jackpot on the losing team. :)
Good theory, but no, he was just a little out of balance and was always like this. He was one of those guys you can see a mile away that he has low self-esteem.

He was an extreme case but millions of football fanatics get depressed or elated when there team wins and it's very obvious that they are attaching at least a portion of their own personal ego to the team they believe represents there own personal successes and failures.
Don, you are over simplistic! There are gazillions of fans over the world who are passionate and do not have problems with self esteem. If you have been following your team (yes, your team because in many places in the world you are a member, not just a ticket holder) for decades, your father made you a fan, your most fond memories of childhood are attached to it, and it happens that your team lost a great and unique chance... if you are not sad for a week, you are cold blooded!
Yes, most people consider this harmless, but I do not. If you poke around on the web you can find numerous cases of fist fights, gang violence and such by fans of rival teams. I don't remember the specifics but just a few years ago there was a major incident in soccer involving massive fighting by the fans and several deaths. It's was not just isolated to a minority of idiots.

It's not just sports - it's everything. It's race, religion, politics and nationality that makes people behave like this. To me sport fanaticism has all the characteristics of racism. It's almost like rooting for the guy that is of the same race as you. If it's not the same race it's the same country (a countryman) and yet one is consider acceptable and the other is not. Even though your favorite team may have nothing to do with race or nationalism, there is SOMETHING that you identify with and leaves you feeling up or down depending on result.

When I was in high school in the midwest USA we would have pep rallies before a game against another high school team and this led to incidents and fights against the other school. It was no surprise, because the purpose of the pep rally was to make not just our team, but our school feel like it was superior to everyone else, and the other school to seem highly inferior (and although not verbalized, "un-American.") I was just a kid and did not know how to express myself, but it seemed very wrong to me at the time and yet everyone seemed to be into it. Steve Martin the comedian joked about this when he made up his own cheer, "die you gravy sucking pigs." But his exaggeration was actually not much of an exaggeration. Of course it didn't work well because the other school and team also felt the same way. Put two groups of people together who think they are more important than the other and you will see the sparks fly.

I have never seen anything good come of this kind of thing, whether it involved football teams, race, religion or nationalism (which is another form of religion and worship.)

I think anyone that gets involved in any of this has some self-esteem issues. Thinking you are better than others is a self-esteem issue because it caters to peoples egotistical desire to feel superior to others and this makes them treat other people as if they actually are inferior.

For instance, when the Argentine soccer team plays (true for many others), it is more that a team playing. There is a culture, a style of play, and philosophy behind it, as well as a network of human interactions and friendships. When you lose, depending how you lose, you may be sad not because your team failure is yours, but for many other reasons. For instance, you started to love the players who like gladiators _bust_ their asses in the field. They represent us, because all of us played soccer and we send the best we have. So they are the tip of the iceberg, and we are the part that support that tip in many ways. When the team wins we all benefit from it. Even economically!
What about when the team that loses? What about the OTHER team that loses when we win? You are seeing this from the point of view of "we must put the other person down" so that we can benefit from it without considering the other persons point of view.

I recognize that my point of view is probably not popular and I don't want to go into battle with the entire forum on this - but if you look very closely at any kind of "group superiority" issue, which could be sports teams, race, nationality, religion and so on, I think you will find that much more bad than good comes of it.

You describe a pathological behavior, but there are many ways to be passionate, sad or happy (even looking crazy), and still be healthy about it.
Of course, but not by seeking to put others down. I'm passionate about chess and I'm sad when someone I love dies. I'm happy when I can help someone with something.

Miguel

It's sad, because they let the accomplishments of others serve as proxies for their own self-worth - and in most case they don't have a fraction of the talent of the athletes they identify with.

It's like this with the Robbo and Houdini nut-cases too. Low self-esteem, and they attach their loyalties to a winner so that they can feel like a winner.
Comparing rooting for a football team with racism? You almost Godwin'ed the debate here...

Your whole post is confusing being a supporter with being a fanatic.

De Vos W
Posts: 431
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Re: Houdini is getting some wider press. Congratulations!

Post by De Vos W » Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:27 pm

Don wrote:
gerold wrote:
Don wrote:
bhlangonijr wrote:
Don wrote: I just don't understand why people attach so much of their own self-worth to an achievement they had nothing to do with. Don't you have something of your own to take pride in?
This is an euphemism for: "Dude, get a life." :lol:

That phenomenon is an interesting side of the human nature. It is very often associated with some level of fanatism as commonly found in some fundamentalist religious people and also in football supporters.
It's odd that you mention football because I almost included an anecdote about this. Years ago an acquaintance of mine was depressed for about 2 weeks because his football team lost the super bowl. I just can't imagine how such a thing can mean so much to someone who seemed to take the loss as a personal failing on his own part. Had "his" team won he would have been flying high and probably would have felt like he was superior to everyone else for a couple of weeks.
May be he bet the family jackpot on the losing team. :)
Good theory, but no, he was just a little out of balance and was always like this. He was one of those guys you can see a mile away that he has low self-esteem.

He was an extreme case but millions of football fanatics get depressed or elated when there team wins and it's very obvious that they are attaching at least a portion of their own personal ego to the team they believe represents there own personal successes and failures. It's sad, because they let the accomplishments of others serve as proxies for their own self-worth - and in most case they don't have a fraction of the talent of the athletes they identify with.

It's like this with the Robbo and Houdini nut-cases too. Low self-esteem, and they attach their loyalties to a winner so that they can feel like a winner.
How you judged others, an interesting study:

"Your perceptions of others reveal so much about your own personality," says Dustin Wood, assistant professor of psychology at Wake Forest and lead author of the study, about his findings. By asking study participants to each rate positive and negative characteristics of just three people, the researchers were able to find out important information about the rater's well-being, mental health, social attitudes and how they were judged by others.

The study appears in the July issue of the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. Peter Harms at the University of Nebraska and Simine Vazire of Washington University in St. Louis co-authored the study.

The researchers found a person's tendency to describe others in positive terms is an important indicator of the positivity of the person's own personality traits. They discovered particularly strong associations between positively judging others and how enthusiastic, happy, kind-hearted, courteous, emotionally stable and capable the person describes oneself and is described by others.

"Seeing others positively reveals our own positive traits," Wood says.

The study also found that how positively you see other people shows how satisfied you are with your own life, and how much you are liked by others.

In contrast, negative perceptions of others are linked to higher levels of narcissism and antisocial behavior. "A huge suite of negative personality traits are associated with viewing others negatively," Wood says. "The simple tendency to see people negatively indicates a greater likelihood of depression and various personality disorders." Given that negative perceptions of others may underlie several personality disorders, finding techniques to get people to see others more positively could promote the cessation of behavior patterns associated with several different personality disorders simultaneously, Wood says.

This research suggests that when you ask someone to rate the personality of a particular coworker or acquaintance, you may learn as much about the rater providing the personality description as the person they are describing. The level of negativity the rater uses in describing the other person may indeed indicate that the other person has negative characteristics, but may also be a tip off that the rater is unhappy, disagreeable, neurotic -- or has other negative personality traits.

Raters in the study consisted of friends rating one another, college freshmen rating others they knew in their dormitories, and fraternity and sorority members rating others in their organization. In all samples, participants rated real people and the positivity of their ratings were found to be associated with the participant's own characteristics.

By evaluating the raters and how they evaluated their peers again one year later, Wood found compelling evidence that how positively we tend to perceive others in our social environment is a highly stable trait that does not change substantially over time.
Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense.

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Don
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Re: Houdini is getting some wider press. Congratulations!

Post by Don » Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:32 pm

rbarreira wrote:
Don wrote:
michiguel wrote:
Don wrote:
gerold wrote:
Don wrote:
bhlangonijr wrote:
Don wrote: I just don't understand why people attach so much of their own self-worth to an achievement they had nothing to do with. Don't you have something of your own to take pride in?
This is an euphemism for: "Dude, get a life." :lol:

That phenomenon is an interesting side of the human nature. It is very often associated with some level of fanatism as commonly found in some fundamentalist religious people and also in football supporters.
It's odd that you mention football because I almost included an anecdote about this. Years ago an acquaintance of mine was depressed for about 2 weeks because his football team lost the super bowl. I just can't imagine how such a thing can mean so much to someone who seemed to take the loss as a personal failing on his own part. Had "his" team won he would have been flying high and probably would have felt like he was superior to everyone else for a couple of weeks.
May be he bet the family jackpot on the losing team. :)
Good theory, but no, he was just a little out of balance and was always like this. He was one of those guys you can see a mile away that he has low self-esteem.

He was an extreme case but millions of football fanatics get depressed or elated when there team wins and it's very obvious that they are attaching at least a portion of their own personal ego to the team they believe represents there own personal successes and failures.
Don, you are over simplistic! There are gazillions of fans over the world who are passionate and do not have problems with self esteem. If you have been following your team (yes, your team because in many places in the world you are a member, not just a ticket holder) for decades, your father made you a fan, your most fond memories of childhood are attached to it, and it happens that your team lost a great and unique chance... if you are not sad for a week, you are cold blooded!
Yes, most people consider this harmless, but I do not. If you poke around on the web you can find numerous cases of fist fights, gang violence and such by fans of rival teams. I don't remember the specifics but just a few years ago there was a major incident in soccer involving massive fighting by the fans and several deaths. It's was not just isolated to a minority of idiots.

It's not just sports - it's everything. It's race, religion, politics and nationality that makes people behave like this. To me sport fanaticism has all the characteristics of racism. It's almost like rooting for the guy that is of the same race as you. If it's not the same race it's the same country (a countryman) and yet one is consider acceptable and the other is not. Even though your favorite team may have nothing to do with race or nationalism, there is SOMETHING that you identify with and leaves you feeling up or down depending on result.

When I was in high school in the midwest USA we would have pep rallies before a game against another high school team and this led to incidents and fights against the other school. It was no surprise, because the purpose of the pep rally was to make not just our team, but our school feel like it was superior to everyone else, and the other school to seem highly inferior (and although not verbalized, "un-American.") I was just a kid and did not know how to express myself, but it seemed very wrong to me at the time and yet everyone seemed to be into it. Steve Martin the comedian joked about this when he made up his own cheer, "die you gravy sucking pigs." But his exaggeration was actually not much of an exaggeration. Of course it didn't work well because the other school and team also felt the same way. Put two groups of people together who think they are more important than the other and you will see the sparks fly.

I have never seen anything good come of this kind of thing, whether it involved football teams, race, religion or nationalism (which is another form of religion and worship.)

I think anyone that gets involved in any of this has some self-esteem issues. Thinking you are better than others is a self-esteem issue because it caters to peoples egotistical desire to feel superior to others and this makes them treat other people as if they actually are inferior.

For instance, when the Argentine soccer team plays (true for many others), it is more that a team playing. There is a culture, a style of play, and philosophy behind it, as well as a network of human interactions and friendships. When you lose, depending how you lose, you may be sad not because your team failure is yours, but for many other reasons. For instance, you started to love the players who like gladiators _bust_ their asses in the field. They represent us, because all of us played soccer and we send the best we have. So they are the tip of the iceberg, and we are the part that support that tip in many ways. When the team wins we all benefit from it. Even economically!
What about when the team that loses? What about the OTHER team that loses when we win? You are seeing this from the point of view of "we must put the other person down" so that we can benefit from it without considering the other persons point of view.

I recognize that my point of view is probably not popular and I don't want to go into battle with the entire forum on this - but if you look very closely at any kind of "group superiority" issue, which could be sports teams, race, nationality, religion and so on, I think you will find that much more bad than good comes of it.

You describe a pathological behavior, but there are many ways to be passionate, sad or happy (even looking crazy), and still be healthy about it.
Of course, but not by seeking to put others down. I'm passionate about chess and I'm sad when someone I love dies. I'm happy when I can help someone with something.

Miguel

It's sad, because they let the accomplishments of others serve as proxies for their own self-worth - and in most case they don't have a fraction of the talent of the athletes they identify with.

It's like this with the Robbo and Houdini nut-cases too. Low self-esteem, and they attach their loyalties to a winner so that they can feel like a winner.
Comparing rooting for a football team with racism? You almost Godwin'ed the debate here...
I am comparing fanatical devotion to sports teams as having a lot in common with racism. Not simply rooting for a team to lose.

The underlying concept is called chauvinism. Chauvinism is defined as exaggerated and unreasoning partisanship to any group or cause. So racism, wars in the name of religion, fanatical devotion to point of violence, depression or vandalism over football teams - it's all the same thing.

Are you saying that you don't see anything in common over religious persecution and persecution of someone over their race? Or viewing someone as the enemy and killing them because they support the "other" team?

Your whole post is confusing being a supporter with being a fanatic.
No, you are confused because you tried to distill what I said into a neat little package that did not represent what I said.

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michiguel
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Re: Houdini is getting some wider press. Congratulations!

Post by michiguel » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:15 pm

Don wrote:
rbarreira wrote:
Don wrote:
michiguel wrote:
Don wrote:
gerold wrote:
Don wrote:
bhlangonijr wrote:
Don wrote: I just don't understand why people attach so much of their own self-worth to an achievement they had nothing to do with. Don't you have something of your own to take pride in?
This is an euphemism for: "Dude, get a life." :lol:

That phenomenon is an interesting side of the human nature. It is very often associated with some level of fanatism as commonly found in some fundamentalist religious people and also in football supporters.
It's odd that you mention football because I almost included an anecdote about this. Years ago an acquaintance of mine was depressed for about 2 weeks because his football team lost the super bowl. I just can't imagine how such a thing can mean so much to someone who seemed to take the loss as a personal failing on his own part. Had "his" team won he would have been flying high and probably would have felt like he was superior to everyone else for a couple of weeks.
May be he bet the family jackpot on the losing team. :)
Good theory, but no, he was just a little out of balance and was always like this. He was one of those guys you can see a mile away that he has low self-esteem.

He was an extreme case but millions of football fanatics get depressed or elated when there team wins and it's very obvious that they are attaching at least a portion of their own personal ego to the team they believe represents there own personal successes and failures.
Don, you are over simplistic! There are gazillions of fans over the world who are passionate and do not have problems with self esteem. If you have been following your team (yes, your team because in many places in the world you are a member, not just a ticket holder) for decades, your father made you a fan, your most fond memories of childhood are attached to it, and it happens that your team lost a great and unique chance... if you are not sad for a week, you are cold blooded!
Yes, most people consider this harmless, but I do not. If you poke around on the web you can find numerous cases of fist fights, gang violence and such by fans of rival teams. I don't remember the specifics but just a few years ago there was a major incident in soccer involving massive fighting by the fans and several deaths. It's was not just isolated to a minority of idiots.

It's not just sports - it's everything. It's race, religion, politics and nationality that makes people behave like this. To me sport fanaticism has all the characteristics of racism. It's almost like rooting for the guy that is of the same race as you. If it's not the same race it's the same country (a countryman) and yet one is consider acceptable and the other is not. Even though your favorite team may have nothing to do with race or nationalism, there is SOMETHING that you identify with and leaves you feeling up or down depending on result.

When I was in high school in the midwest USA we would have pep rallies before a game against another high school team and this led to incidents and fights against the other school. It was no surprise, because the purpose of the pep rally was to make not just our team, but our school feel like it was superior to everyone else, and the other school to seem highly inferior (and although not verbalized, "un-American.") I was just a kid and did not know how to express myself, but it seemed very wrong to me at the time and yet everyone seemed to be into it. Steve Martin the comedian joked about this when he made up his own cheer, "die you gravy sucking pigs." But his exaggeration was actually not much of an exaggeration. Of course it didn't work well because the other school and team also felt the same way. Put two groups of people together who think they are more important than the other and you will see the sparks fly.

I have never seen anything good come of this kind of thing, whether it involved football teams, race, religion or nationalism (which is another form of religion and worship.)

I think anyone that gets involved in any of this has some self-esteem issues. Thinking you are better than others is a self-esteem issue because it caters to peoples egotistical desire to feel superior to others and this makes them treat other people as if they actually are inferior.

For instance, when the Argentine soccer team plays (true for many others), it is more that a team playing. There is a culture, a style of play, and philosophy behind it, as well as a network of human interactions and friendships. When you lose, depending how you lose, you may be sad not because your team failure is yours, but for many other reasons. For instance, you started to love the players who like gladiators _bust_ their asses in the field. They represent us, because all of us played soccer and we send the best we have. So they are the tip of the iceberg, and we are the part that support that tip in many ways. When the team wins we all benefit from it. Even economically!
What about when the team that loses? What about the OTHER team that loses when we win? You are seeing this from the point of view of "we must put the other person down" so that we can benefit from it without considering the other persons point of view.

I recognize that my point of view is probably not popular and I don't want to go into battle with the entire forum on this - but if you look very closely at any kind of "group superiority" issue, which could be sports teams, race, nationality, religion and so on, I think you will find that much more bad than good comes of it.

You describe a pathological behavior, but there are many ways to be passionate, sad or happy (even looking crazy), and still be healthy about it.
Of course, but not by seeking to put others down. I'm passionate about chess and I'm sad when someone I love dies. I'm happy when I can help someone with something.

Miguel

It's sad, because they let the accomplishments of others serve as proxies for their own self-worth - and in most case they don't have a fraction of the talent of the athletes they identify with.

It's like this with the Robbo and Houdini nut-cases too. Low self-esteem, and they attach their loyalties to a winner so that they can feel like a winner.
Comparing rooting for a football team with racism? You almost Godwin'ed the debate here...
I am comparing fanatical devotion to sports teams as having a lot in common with racism. Not simply rooting for a team to lose.

The underlying concept is called chauvinism. Chauvinism is defined as exaggerated and unreasoning partisanship to any group or cause. So racism, wars in the name of religion, fanatical devotion to point of violence, depression or vandalism over football teams - it's all the same thing.

Are you saying that you don't see anything in common over religious persecution and persecution of someone over their race? Or viewing someone as the enemy and killing them because they support the "other" team?

Your whole post is confusing being a supporter with being a fanatic.
No, you are confused because you tried to distill what I said into a neat little package that did not represent what I said.
You started comparing a friend of yours that got depressed for a week, and also millions of fans who may do the same. That is not hooliganism.

Miguel

Michel
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Houdini is getting some wider press. Congratulations!

Post by Michel » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:34 pm

How you judged others, an interesting study:
Copy pasting is really your thing isn't it?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 165441.htm

De Vos W
Posts: 431
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:59 am

Re: Houdini is getting some wider press. Congratulations!

Post by De Vos W » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:09 am

Michel wrote:
How you judged others, an interesting study:
Copy pasting is really your thing isn't it?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 165441.htm
Why not?
It's an interesting study!
Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense.

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Kirill Kryukov
Posts: 492
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Re: Houdini is getting some wider press. Congratulations!

Post by Kirill Kryukov » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:20 am

De Vos W wrote:How you judged others, an interesting study:

"Your perceptions of others reveal so much about your own personality,"

[skip]

"Seeing others positively reveals our own positive traits," Wood says.

[skip]

"A huge suite of negative personality traits are associated with viewing others negatively," Wood says.

[skip]
Great theory. I wonder what does it say about people who keep bashing the testing groups for using different engines or testing conditions from their favorite.

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