Houdini has rook and pawn endgame error(s) vs. Stockfish 2

[jplchess]

Here is an example that Houdini may have an endgame problem.

I don't know how to use FEN diagrams, I will use another method:
White king d5
White queen f5
Black king g3
Black rook e3
Black pawn g4
Black to move on the 83rd move:

Black rook to e8???? loses.
I would prefer the fortress; rook to f3 for a draw.

Both sides had 1 minute remaining and it was game in 5 minutes.
However, I have a 2 GHZ computer and I used antivirus software to make it go 3 times faster in 2011.

Anybody having similar problems with Houdini 1.5?
Jonathan Lee

[zullil]

[D]8/8/8/3K1Q2/6p1/4r1k1/8/8 b - - 0 83

[Guenther]

Here is an example that Houdini may have an endgame problem.

I don't know how to use FEN diagrams, I will use another method:
White king d5
White queen f5
Black king g3
Black rook e3
Black pawn g4
Black to move on the 83rd move:

Black rook to e8???? loses.
I would prefer the fortress; rook to f3 for a draw.

Both sides had 1 minute remaining and it was game in 5 minutes.
However, I have a 2 GHZ computer and I used antivirus software to make it go 3 times faster in 2011.

Anybody having similar problems with Houdini 1.5?
Jonathan Lee

[D]8/8/8/3K1Q2/6p1/4r1k1/8/8 b - - 0 1

From a Human perspective Rf3 looks better because of the fortress,
but actually it seems Re8 draws also according to Shredders online
endgame database besides six! more moves(no tablebases installed locally on this computer).
Thus the real error must have been later in the game.
IIRC correctly Houdini is capable of using Miguels endgame bases(up to 5men), which you seem not to use.
If the other program used endgame tables it is really hard to draw this by pure search.

Guenther

[zullil]

[D]8/8/8/3K1Q2/6p1/4r1k1/8/8 b - - 0 1

From a Human perspective Rf3 looks better because of the fortress,
but actually it seems Re8 draws also according to Shredders online
endgame database besides six! more moves(no tablebases installed locally on this computer).
Thus the real error must have been later in the game.
IIRC correctly Houdini is capable of using Miguels endgame bases(up to 5men), which you seem not to use.
If the other program used endgame tables it is really hard to draw this by pure search.

Guenther

Here's the data for this position:

Code: Select all

Draw

Move	   Value

Re3-b3	 Draw
Re3-a3	 Draw
Re3-f3	 Draw
Re3-e2	 Draw
Re3-e1	 Draw
Re3-e7	 Draw
Re3-e8	 Draw
Kg3-h3	 Draw
Kg3-g2	 Lose in 24
Re3-c3	 Lose in 8
Kg3-h4	 Lose in 8
Re3-d3	 Lose in 7
Re3-e6	 Lose in 7
Kg3-h2	 Lose in 7
Re3-e5	 Lose in 6
Re3-e4	 Lose in 5

[gerold]

[D]8/8/8/3K1Q2/6p1/4r1k1/8/8 b - - 0 83

My computer shows.
Houdini 1.5 after 5 minutes move Re3- e2

[Robert Flesher]

Here is an example that Houdini may have an endgame problem.

I don't know how to use FEN diagrams, I will use another method:
White king d5
White queen f5
Black king g3
Black rook e3
Black pawn g4
Black to move on the 83rd move:

Black rook to e8???? loses.
I would prefer the fortress; rook to f3 for a draw.

Both sides had 1 minute remaining and it was game in 5 minutes.
However, I have a 2 GHZ computer and I used antivirus software to make it go 3 times faster in 2011.

Anybody having similar problems with Houdini 1.5?
Jonathan Lee

This is a tablebase drawn position. Re7 also draws.

[zullil]

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 18&t=37593

[Robert Flesher]

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 18&t=37593

even better !

[jplchess]

Thank you all for getting my attention quickly. I copied and pasted this blitz game. Tell me where Houdini made the error from moves 83 until 100 both white and black.

Jonathan Lee


83. Qf5 {(Qc8f5 Re3f3 Qf5e6 Rf3f2 Qe6g6 Rf2d2+ Kd5e5 Rd2f2 Ke5e4
Rf2f4+ Ke4e3 Rf4f3+ Ke3d4 Rf3f2 Qg6e6 Rf2f4+ Kd4e5 Rf4f2 Qe6g6 Rf2f3 Qg6g5
Rf3f2 Qg5h5 Rf2e2+ Ke5f5 Re2f2+ Kf5g5 Rf2f4 Qh5h4+ Kg3f3 Qh4h7) +4.28/20}
Re8 {(Re3e8 Kd5d4 Re8d8+ Kd4e3 Rd8e8+ Ke3d3 Re8e1 Qf5a5 Re1f1 Qa5e5+ Kg3h3
Qe5e6 Rf1f2 Kd3e3 Kh3g3 Qe6d7 Rf2f3+ Ke3e4 Rf3f4+ Ke4e5 Rf4f2 Qd7d6 Rf2f3
Ke5e4+ Kg3h3 Qd6h6+ Kh3g3 Qh6h7 Kg3g2 Qh7h5 Kg2g3 Qh5b5 Kg3g2 Qb5e2+ Kg2h3
Ke4e5 Rf3f7 Qe2c4 Rf7f8 Qc4e6 Rf8f3 Qe6c6 Rf3f2 Qc6h1+ Kh3g3 Qh1d5 Rf2f3
Qd5e4 Rf3f2 Qe4c4 Rf2f3 Qc4c2 Rf3f4 Qc2d3+ Rf4f3 Qd3d2 Rf3f2 Qd2d5 Rf2f3)
-1.76/18} 84. Qg6 {(Qf5g6 Re8d8+ Kd5e5 Rd8f8 Ke5e6 Rf8f3 Ke6d5 Rf3f2 Kd5d4
Kg3h4 Kd4e3 Rf2f3+ Ke3e4 Rf3f2 Ke4d3 Kh4g3 Qg6e4 Rf2f3+ Kd3e2 Rf3a3 Qe4e6
Ra3f3 Qe6e4) +4.28/19} Ra8 {(Re8a8 Qg6e6 Ra8a4 Kd5e5 Ra4f4 Qe6b3+ Rf4f3
Qb3c2 Rf3f4 Qc2d3+ Rf4f3 Qd3d2 Rf3f2 Qd2d5 Rf2f3 Qd5c6 Rf3f2 Qc6c4 Rf2f3
Qc4e4 Rf3f2 Qe4c4 Rf2f3) -1.76/17} 85. Qd6+ {(Qg6d6+ Kg3g2 Kd5e5 Kg2h3
Ke5f4 Ra8a4+ Kf4e3 Kh3h4 Qd6h2+ Kh4g5 Qh2d2 Ra4f4 Qd2d8+ Rf4f6 Ke3e4 Kg5g6
Qd8g8+ Kg6h5 Qg8h7+ Kh5g5 Qh7g7+ Rf6g6 Qg7e5+ Kg5h4 Ke4f4) +4.80/15} Kh3
{(Kg3h3 Kd5e5 Ra8a5+ Ke5f4 Ra5a4+ Kf4e3 Ra4a7 Qd6e6 Kh3g3 Qe6e5+ Kg3h4
Qe5h2+ Kh4g5 Qh2d6 Ra7f7 Qd6d8+ Rf7f6 Qd8d2 Rf6f3+ Ke3e4+ Kg5h4 Qd2h6+
Kh4g3 Qh6e6 Kg3h4 Qe6e5 Rf3f2 Qe5h8+ Kh4g3 Qh8c8 Rf2f3 Qc8c5 Rf3f4+ Ke4e5
Rf4f3 Qc5d4 Rf3f2 Qd4d3+ Kg3h2 Qd3h7+ Kh2g2 Qh7e4+ Kg2g3 Qe4c4 Rf2f3 Qc4e4
Rf3f2 Qe4c4) -1.76/16} 86. Ke4 {(Kd5e4 Ra8a4+ Ke4e3 Kh3h4 Qd6h2+ Kh4g5
Qh2d2 Kg5h5 Ke3f2 Ra4a7 Qd2d5+ Kh5h4 Qd5d8+ Kh4h5 Qd8f8 Ra7b7 Qf8e8+ Kh5g5
Qe8g8+ Kg5f6 Qg8xg4 Kf6e5 Kf2f3 Rb7b3+ Kf3f2) +6.96/15} Ra2 {(Ra8a2 Qd6d4
Kh3g3 Qd4d1 Kg3h4 Qd1d8+ Kh4g3 Ke4f5 Ra2g2 Qd8d6+ Kg3f2 Qd6d2+ Kf2f1 Qd2d1+
Kf1f2 Kf5f4 Rg2g1 Qd1d2+ Kf2f1 Qd2d4 Rg1g2 Qd4e3 Rg2g1 Qe3e6 Rg1g2 Qe6e4
Kf1f2 Kf4g5 Kf2f1 Qe4f4+ Kf1e2 Qf4d4 Rg2g3 Kg5f4 Rg3g2 Qd4c3 Ke2f1 Qc3e3
Rg2g1) -2.14/17 2} 87. Kf4 {(Ke4f4 Ra2a4+ Kf4e3 Ra4a8 Qd6c6 Ra8a7 Qc6e6
Ra7a3+ Ke3f2 Ra3f3+ Kf2g1 Rf3d3 Qe6h6+ Kh3g3 Qh6h2+ Kg3f3 Qh2f2+ Kf3e4
Qf2e2+ Ke4d4 Qe2xg4+ Kd4c5 Qg4c8+ Kc5d4 Kg1f2 Rd3d2+ Kf2f3 Rd2d3+ Kf3f4
Kd4d5 Qc8f5+ Kd5c4 Kf4e4 Rd3d2) +7.12/17} Ra4+ {(Ra2a4+ Kf4e3 Ra4a7 Qd6e6
Ra7a3+ Ke3e4 Ra3f3 Qe6d7 Kh3g3 Ke4e5 Rf3f8 Qd7h7 Rf8f3 Qh7g7 Rf3b3 Qg7d7
Rb3f3 Qd7c6 Rf3f2 Qc6g6 Rf2f3 Qg6h7 Rf3b3 Qh7d7 Rb3f3) -1.76/14} 88. Ke3
{(Kf4e3 Kh3h4 Qd6h2+ Kh4g5 Qh2d2 Kg5h5 Ke3f2 Ra4a7 Qd2d5+ Kh5h4 Qd5h1+
Kh4g5 Qh1c1+ Kg5g6 Kf2g3 Ra7e7 Qc1f4 Re7f7 Qf4e4+ Kg6g7 Qe4e5+ Kg7f8 Qe5b8+
Kf8g7 Kg3xg4 Kg7f6 Qb8d6+ Kf6g7) +7.22/16} Kh4 {(Kh3h4 Qd6h2+ Kh4g5 Qh2d2
Kg5h4 Ke3f2 Ra4a6 Qd2d8+ Kh4h5 Qd8h8+ Kh5g5 Qh8e5+ Kg5h6 Qe5f4+ Kh6h5
Qf4f5+ Kh5h4 Qf5h7+ Kh4g5 Qh7e7+ Ra6f6+ Kf2g3 Kg5f5 Qe7c5+ Kf5e4 Qc5c4+
Ke4e5 Qc4c7+ Rf6d6 Kg3xg4 Ke5e6 Qc7c4+ Rd6d5 Qc4e4+ Ke6d6) -3.01/16 1} 89.
Qh2+ {(Qd6h2+ Kh4g5 Qh2d2 Kg5h5 Ke3f2 Ra4a7 Qd2d5+ Kh5h4 Qd5h1+ Kh4g5
Qh1c1+ Kg5g6 Qc1c6+ Kg6f7 Kf2g3 Ra7e7 Kg3xg4 Re7e6 Qc6c5 Re6f6 Kg4g5 Rf6e6
Kg5f5 Re6f6+ Kf5e5 Kf7g6 Qc5e7) +7.27/16} Kg5 {(Kh4g5 Qh2d2 Kg5h4 Ke3f2
Ra4a6 Qd2d8+ Kh4h5 Qd8h8+ Kh5g5 Qh8e5+ Kg5h6 Qe5f4+ Kh6h5 Qf4f5+ Kh5h4
Qf5h7+ Kh4g5 Qh7e7+ Ra6f6+ Kf2g3 Kg5f5 Qe7c5+ Kf5e4 Qc5c4+ Ke4e5 Qc4c7+
Rf6d6 Kg3xg4 Ke5e6 Qc7c4+ Rd6d5 Qc4e4+ Ke6d6) -3.01/15} 90. Qd2 {(Qh2d2
Kg5h4 Ke3f2 Ra4a6 Qd2d8+ Kh4h5 Qd8e8+ Kh5h6 Kf2g3 Ra6g6 Qe8h8+ Kh6g5 Qh8e5+
Kg5h6 Qe5e7 Rg6g5 Qe7f8+ Kh6h7 Qf8f7+ Rg5g7 Qf7h5+ Kh7g8 Qh5f5 Rg7f7 Qf5d5
Kg8g7 Kg3xg4 Kg7f6 Qd5g5+ Kf6e6 Qg5g6+ Rf7f6 Qg6h5 Ke6d6) +7.22/16} Kh4
{(Kg5h4 Ke3f2 Ra4a6 Qd2d8+ Kh4h5 Qd8h8+ Kh5g5 Qh8e5+ Kg5h6 Kf2g3 Ra6g6
Qe5h8+ Kh6g5 Qh8f8 Rg6e6 Qf8f4+ Kg5g6 Kg3xg4 Kg6g7 Qf4c4 Re6g6+ Kg4f5
Rg6f6+ Kf5e4 Rf6f7) -3.13/16} 91. Kf2 {(Ke3f2 Ra4a6 Qd2d8+ Kh4h5 Qd8e8+
Kh5h6 Kf2g3 Ra6g6 Qe8h8+ Kh6g5 Qh8f8 Rg6f6 Qf8d8 Kg5h5 Qd8d5+ Kh5h6 Kg3xg4
Rf6g6+ Kg4f4 Rg6f6+ Kf4e5 Kh6g7 Qd5d8 Rf6g6 Ke5f5 Kg7h6 Kf5f4 Kh6g7 Qd8e8)
+7.32/15} Ra6 {(Ra4a6 Qd2d8+ Kh4h5 Qd8h8+ Kh5g5 Qh8e5+ Kg5h6 Kf2g3 Ra6g6
Qe5h8+ Kh6g5 Qh8f8 Rg6e6 Qf8f4+ Kg5g6 Kg3xg4 Kg6g7 Qf4c4 Re6g6+ Kg4f5
Rg6f6+ Kf5e4 Rf6f7) -3.13/15} 92. Qd8+ {(Qd2d8+ Kh4h5 Qd8e8+ Kh5h4 Qe8e7+
Kh4h5 Kf2g3 Ra6f6 Qe7e8+ Kh5g5 Qe8d8 Kg5h5 Qd8d5+ Kh5h6 Kg3xg4 Rf6g6+ Kg4f4
Rg6f6+ Kf4e5 Kh6g7 Qd5d8 Rf6f2 Qd8c7+ Rf2f7 Qc7b6 Kg7f8 Qb6d8+ Kf8g7 Qd8g5+
Kg7h7 Ke5e6) +7.32/16} Kh5 {(Kh4h5 Qd8h8+ Kh5g5 Qh8e5+ Kg5h6 Kf2g3 Ra6g6
Qe5h8+ Kh6g5 Qh8f8 Rg6e6 Qf8f4+ Kg5g6 Kg3xg4 Kg6g7 Qf4c4 Re6g6+ Kg4f5
Rg6f6+ Kf5e4 Rf6f7) -3.13/14} 93. Qe8+ {(Qd8e8+ Ra6g6 Kf2g3 Kh5h6 Qe8h8+
Kh6g5 Qh8f8 Rg6f6 Qf8d8 Kg5h5 Qd8d5+ Kh5h6 Kg3xg4 Rf6g6+ Kg4f4 Rg6f6+ Kf4e5
Kh6g7 Qd5d8 Rf6f2 Qd8c7+ Rf2f7 Qc7b6 Kg7f8 Qb6d8+ Kf8g7 Qd8g5+ Kg7h7 Ke5e6)
+7.32/18} Rg6 {(Ra6g6 Kf2g3 Kh5g5 Qe8f8 Rg6f6 Qf8d8 Kg5g6 Kg3xg4 Rf6e6
Qd8g5+ Kg6f7 Qg5f4+ Re6f6 Qf4c4+ Kf7e7 Kg4g5 Rf6d6 Kg5f5 Rd6f6+ Kf5e5 Rf6d6
Qc4c7+ Rd6d7) -3.26/16} 94. Kg3 {(Kf2g3 Kh5h6 Qe8h8+ Kh6g5 Qh8e5+ Kg5h6
Kg3h4 Kh6h7 Kh4h5 Rg6h6+ Kh5xg4 Rh6g6+ Kg4f5 Rg6g2 Qe5e7+ Rg2g7 Qe7h4+
Kh7g8 Qh4c4+ Kg8h7 Qc4e4 Rg7f7+ Kf5g5+ Kh7g7 Qe4e5+ Kg7h7 Qe5e6 Rf7g7+
Kg5h5 Kh7h8 Kh5h6 Rg7h7+ Kh6g6 Rh7g7+ Kg6f6) +7.47/15} Kg5 {(Kh5g5 Qe8f8
Rg6f6 Qf8d8 Kg5g6 Kg3xg4 Rf6e6 Qd8d4 Re6e7 Qd4d6+ Kg6f7 Kg4f5 Kf7e8 Qd6d5
Re7f7+ Kf5g6 Rf7e7) -3.31/16} 95. Qe5+ {(Qe8e5+ Kg5h6 Kg3h4 Rg6g8 Qe5f6+
Kh6h7 Kh4h5 Rg8g7 Qf6f5+ Kh7g8 Kh5h6 Rg7e7 Qf5f6 Re7b7 Qf6e6+ Kg8f8 Qe6c8+
Kf8e7 Qc8xb7+ Ke7d8 Qb7d5+ Kd8e7 Qd5e4+ Ke7d7 Qe4xg4+ Kd7c6 Qg4f5)
+88.89/12} Kh6 {(Kg5h6 Qe5h8+ Kh6g5 Qh8f8 Rg6f6 Qf8d8 Kg5g6 Kg3xg4 Rf6e6
Qd8d4 Re6e7 Qd4d6+ Kg6f7 Kg4f5 Kf7e8 Qd6d5 Re7f7+ Kf5g6 Rf7e7) -3.13/1} 96.
Kh4 {(Kg3h4 Rg6g8 Qe5f6+ Kh6h7 Kh4h5 Rg8g7 Qf6f5+ Kh7g8 Kh5h6 Rg7e7 Qf5f6
Re7b7 Qf6e6+ Kg8f8 Qe6c8+ Kf8e7 Qc8xb7+ Ke7d6 Qb7b4+ Kd6c6 Qb4xg4)
+88.89/13} Kh7 {(Kh6h7 Kh4h5 Rg6h6+ Kh5xg4 Rh6g6+ Kg4h5 Rg6h6+ Kh5g5 Rh6g6+
Kg5f5 Rg6h6 Qe5e7+ Kh7g8 Qe7e8+ Kg8g7 Qe8d7+ Kg7g8 Kf5g5 Rh6h7 Qd7e8+ Kg8g7
Qe8e4 Kg7g8 Kg5g6 Rh7g7+ Kg6h6 Kg8f8 Qe4a8+ Kf8f7 Qa8a7+ Kf7e6 Qa7xg7 Ke6d5
Kh6g5 Kd5e4 Qg7f6 Ke4d5 Qf6f3+ Kd5d4 Qf3f4+ Kd4c5 Qf4e4 Kc5d6) -10.98/16}
97. Kh5 {(Kh4h5 Rg6h6+ Kh5xg4 Rh6g6+ Kg4f5 Rg6h6 Qe5e7+ Kh7g8 Kf5g5 Rh6h1
Qe7d8+ Kg8g7 Qd8c7+ Kg7f8 Qc7c8+ Kf8e7 Qc8b7+ Ke7d6 Qb7xh1 Kd6c5)
+88.94/12} Rh6+ {(Rg6h6+ Kh5xg4 Rh6g6+ Kg4h5 Rg6h6+ Kh5g5 Rh6g6+ Kg5f5
Rg6h6 Qe5e7+ Kh7g8 Qe7d7 Rh6h7 Qd7e8+ Kg8g7 Kf5g5 Rh7h1 Qe8d7+ Kg7f8 Qd7d8+
Kf8g7 Qd8d4+ Kg7f8 Qd4c5+ Kf8g7 Qc5a7+ Kg7f8 Qa7a8+ Kf8e7 Qa8xh1 Ke7e6
Qh1e4+ Ke6d6 Qe4d4+ Kd6e6 Qd4g4+ Ke6e5 Qg4g3+ Ke5d5 Qg3d3+ Kd5e5 Qd3c3+
Ke5d5 Qc3d3+ Kd5e5) -11.12/18} 98. Kxg4 {(Kh5xg4 Rh6g6+ Kg4f5 Rg6h6 Qe5e7+
Kh7g8 Qe7e8+ Kg8g7 Kf5g5 Rh6h7 Qe8g6+ Kg7h8 Qg6e6 Rh7g7+ Kg5f6 Kh8h7 Qe6e5
Kh7g8 Qe5e6+ Kg8h7) +7.42/12} Rg6+ {(Rh6g6+ Kg4h5 Rg6h6+ Kh5g5 Rh6g6+ Kg5f5
Rg6h6 Qe5d4 Kh7g8 Kf5g5 Rh6h2 Qd4d5+ Kg8f8 Qd5d6+ Kf8e8 Qd6xh2 Ke8d7 Qh2d2+
Kd7c7 Qd2d5 Kc7b6 Kg5f6 Kb6a6 Qd5b3) -11.30/18} 99. Kf5 {(Kg4f5 Rg6h6
Qe5e7+ Kh7g8 Qe7e8+ Kg8g7 Kf5g5 Rh6h7 Qe8g6+ Kg7h8 Qg6e4 Kh8g7 Qe4e8 Rh7h1
Qe8d7+ Kg7f8 Qd7c8+ Kf8e7 Qc8b7+ Ke7d6 Qb7xh1 Kd6c5 Kg5f6) +89.04/15} Rh6
{(Rg6h6 Qe5d4 Kh7g8 Kf5g5 Rh6h2 Qd4d5+ Kg8f8 Qd5d6+ Kf8e8 Qd6xh2 Ke8d7
Qh2e5 Kd7c6 Kg5f5 Kc6b6 Qe5d5 Kb6c7 Qd5c5+ Kc7b7 Qc5d6 Kb7a7 Qd6c6 Ka7b8
Qc6b6+ Kb8c8 Kf5e5 Kc8d7 Qb6b7+ Kd7d8) -11.57/18} 100. Qe8 {(Qe5e8 Kh7g7
Kf5g5 Rh6h7 Qe8g6+ Kg7h8 Qg6e4 Kh8g7 Qe4e8 Rh7h1 Qe8d7+ Kg7f8 Qd7c8+ Kf8e7
Qc8b7+ Ke7d6 Qb7xh1 Kd6c5 Kg5f6) +89.04/13} Kg7 {(Kh7g7 Kf5g5 Rh6h1 Qe8e5+
Kg7f8 Qe5c5+ Kf8e8 Qc5c6+ Ke8d8 Qc6xh1 Kd8c7 Qh1d5 Kc7b6 Kg5f5 Kb6c7 Qd5c5+
Kc7b7 Qc5d6 Kb7a8 Qd6c6+ Ka8a7 Kf5f6 Ka7b8 Qc6d7 Kb8a8 Kf6e5 Ka8b8)
-11.69/18 Black resigns} *

[zullil]

Thank you all for getting my attention quickly. I copied and pasted this blitz game. Tell me where Houdini made the error from moves 83 until 100 both white and black.

Jonathan Lee

83. Qf5 Re8 84. Qg6 Ra8 ...

You can analyze this at http://www.shredderchess.com/online-che ... abase.html

Ra8 loses in 36 moves with perfect play, starting with 85. Qd6 (the only winning response, by the way).

Code: Select all

Draw
Move  	 Value
Re8-f8	 Draw
Re8-e3	 Draw
Re8-e2	 Draw
Re8-e1	 Draw
Re8-d8	 Lose in 42
Re8-a8	 Lose in 36
Re8-c8	 Lose in 31
Re8-h8	 Lose in 26
Re8-b8	 Lose in 11
Re8-e7	 Lose in 10
Kg3-f3	 Lose in 9
Kg3-f2	 Lose in 9
Re8-g8	 Lose in 9
Kg3-g2	 Lose in 8
Kg3-f4	 Lose in 8
Re8-e6	 Lose in 8
Kg3-h3	 Lose in 7
Kg3-h2	 Lose in 7