Robert Flesher wrote:I my Dragon analysis I found myself in this position as black. It seems that black should be able to secure a draw here, but many plans are available. I consider e5 or Re8 as viable, but Houdini likes h5. Can anyone find a winning plan for white, or is my claim of a probable draw correct?
[d] 1rb2rk1/p1q1pp1p/2p3p1/2Nn4/2BQ4/5P2/PPP3PP/2KR3R b - -
My 2 cents:
Your pawn structure is bad compared to white's, which makes many of the endgames that you can transpose to hard for you. As you don't have a clear attack and white is reasonably active seems that white is just better.
Thanks for the reply. Blacks queen side pawns are isolated ( therefore weak), but the open b file is more than compensation for that. I also have a kingside majority, so it's not as bad as it looks for pawn structure. This is a very dynamic position in which white has many ways to go wrong. Remember, I am only trying to draw here and thus thus winning the theoretical debate. The question is can white win? If there is a white win, I have not found it after many hours of study.
Hi Robert,
White ia actually more than active and your only chance in my oipnion is to start a massive offence against the white king....this is how I see the position without chess engines analysis....
Dr.D
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….
Robert Flesher wrote:I my Dragon analysis I found myself in this position as black. It seems that black should be able to secure a draw here, but many plans are available. I consider e5 or Re8 as viable, but Houdini likes h5. Can anyone find a winning plan for white, or is my claim of a probable draw correct?
[d] 1rb2rk1/p1q1pp1p/2p3p1/2Nn4/2BQ4/5P2/PPP3PP/2KR3R b - -
My 2 cents:
Your pawn structure is bad compared to white's, which makes many of the endgames that you can transpose to hard for you. As you don't have a clear attack and white is reasonably active seems that white is just better.
Thanks for the reply. Blacks queen side pawns are isolated ( therefore weak), but the open b file is more than compensation for that. I also have a kingside majority, so it's not as bad as it looks for pawn structure. This is a very dynamic position in which white has many ways to go wrong. Remember, I am only trying to draw here and thus thus winning the theoretical debate. The question is can white win? If there is a white win, I have not found it after many hours of study.
Hi Robert,
White ia actually more than active and your only chance in my oipnion is to start a massive offence against the white king....this is how I see the position without chess engines analysis....
Dr.D
Hey Dr.D, thanks for the reply. The position does look that way, but black has amazing resources. It is not easy for white to find a plan, yet if he does nothing black can start to get an attack. I am trying to refute e5 !?
Eelco de Groot wrote:Did somebody say dragons? Rainbow Serpent thinks Black's best bet is Rb4, but my computer is not so fast, especially compared with that 8 threaded monster Louis has plugged into the wallsockets.
The move is still in Fail Low. So far no other move has surfaced above -0.53 though, and I'm waiting how far the score will go down again. The evaluation of Rainbow Serpent is the same as in Stockfish so only move choices can make a difference here.
1rb2rk1/p1q1pp1p/2p3p1/2Nn4/2BQ4/5P2/PPP3PP/2KR3R b - -
Robert Flesher wrote:I my Dragon analysis I found myself in this position as black. It seems that black should be able to secure a draw here, but many plans are available. I consider e5 or Re8 as viable, but Houdini likes h5. Can anyone find a winning plan for white, or is my claim of a probable draw correct?
[d] 1rb2rk1/p1q1pp1p/2p3p1/2Nn4/2BQ4/5P2/PPP3PP/2KR3R b - -
My 2 cents:
Your pawn structure is bad compared to white's, which makes many of the endgames that you can transpose to hard for you. As you don't have a clear attack and white is reasonably active seems that white is just better.
Thanks for the reply. Blacks queen side pawns are isolated ( therefore weak), but the open b file is more than compensation for that. I also have a kingside majority, so it's not as bad as it looks for pawn structure. This is a very dynamic position in which white has many ways to go wrong. Remember, I am only trying to draw here and thus thus winning the theoretical debate. The question is can white win? If there is a white win, I have not found it after many hours of study.
I think at this stage of the game you should think in terms "who is better" but not "is there a win", because you're in early middlegame and its hard to imagine there will be a forced win. But when there is no forced win this does not mean you have found a draw.
Indeed the b-file is nice but white has simple moves like Bb3 and what is the use of your rook on b8 then?
Actually one of the reasons people play Dragon is that many of the endgames are good for black, so if you don't get mated you're ok.
In this position white is just better IMO, and Houdini saying +0.5 after many hours of analysis is a solid proof of this.
Robert Flesher wrote:I my Dragon analysis I found myself in this position as black. It seems that black should be able to secure a draw here, but many plans are available. I consider e5 or Re8 as viable, but Houdini likes h5. Can anyone find a winning plan for white, or is my claim of a probable draw correct?
[d] 1rb2rk1/p1q1pp1p/2p3p1/2Nn4/2BQ4/5P2/PPP3PP/2KR3R b - -
My 2 cents:
Your pawn structure is bad compared to white's, which makes many of the endgames that you can transpose to hard for you. As you don't have a clear attack and white is reasonably active seems that white is just better.
Thanks for the reply. Blacks queen side pawns are isolated ( therefore weak), but the open b file is more than compensation for that. I also have a kingside majority, so it's not as bad as it looks for pawn structure. This is a very dynamic position in which white has many ways to go wrong. Remember, I am only trying to draw here and thus thus winning the theoretical debate. The question is can white win? If there is a white win, I have not found it after many hours of study.
I think at this stage of the game you should think in terms "who is better" but not "is there a win", because you're in early middlegame and its hard to imagine there will be a forced win. But when there is no forced win this does not mean you have found a draw.
Indeed the b-file is nice but white has simple moves like Bb3 and what is the use of your rook on b8 then?
Actually one of the reasons people play Dragon is that many of the endgames are good for black, so if you don't get mated you're ok.
In this position white is just better IMO, and Houdini saying +0.5 after many hours of analysis is a solid proof of this.
Ok, well I believe white is not that much better and with proper defense black should draw. I asked for help to see is there was a forced win, as I cannot find one. I can of course draw my own conclusions and I have after many hours of analysis. I intend to play this line against strong humans, not engines.
To answer your question, Bb3 can be exploited in some lines if the best defense is not found. (humans will not find the best lines as often as engines)
For example, from this position :
[d] 1rbr2k1/p1q1pp1p/2p3p1/2Nn4/3Q4/1B3P2/PPP3PP/2KR3R b - -
From here in a human game play could follow e5 Qf2 Rb5 h4? dubious , but very human Qa5!? Nd3? again a human like move ( na4 better, but the saying goes, a knight on the rim is dim) Rxb3! cxb3 (axb3 loses on the spot) Qxa2. Black has his attack!
Also, IMHO engines can not always be trusted in positions when so many moves are available, even Houdini can be wrong.
Robert Flesher wrote:I my Dragon analysis I found myself in this position as black. It seems that black should be able to secure a draw here, but many plans are available. I consider e5 or Re8 as viable, but Houdini likes h5. Can anyone find a winning plan for white, or is my claim of a probable draw correct?
[d] 1rb2rk1/p1q1pp1p/2p3p1/2Nn4/2BQ4/5P2/PPP3PP/2KR3R b - -
One way to approach this may be to consider if it were white's move, what is white threatening? It appears white is threatening to win a pawn; this may give an indication of where black should be looking as well as who has an initiative. 1...e5 looks like one possibility, but doesn't that have some implications for that pawn coming under pressure in a few moves? F7 also seems under a little pressure. All in all, with the pawn structure seeming to favor white somewhat for endgame purposes (especially if the pawn on c6 falls), I think I would favor white since this seems to me to be a hard game for black to hold.
Robert Flesher wrote:I my Dragon analysis I found myself in this position as black. It seems that black should be able to secure a draw here, but many plans are available. I consider e5 or Re8 as viable, but Houdini likes h5. Can anyone find a winning plan for white, or is my claim of a probable draw correct?
[d] 1rb2rk1/p1q1pp1p/2p3p1/2Nn4/2BQ4/5P2/PPP3PP/2KR3R b - -
One way to approach this may be to consider if it were white's move, what is white threatening? It appears white is threatening to win a pawn; this may give an indication of where black should be looking as well as who has an initiative. 1...e5 looks like one possibility, but doesn't that have some implications for that pawn coming under pressure in a few moves? F7 also seems under a little pressure. All in all, with the pawn structure seeming to favor white somewhat for endgame purposes (especially if the pawn on c6 falls), I think I would favor white since this seems to me to be a hard game for black to hold.
Hi David, thanks for the reply. I guess most people don't understand that I have spent countless hours on this position (and most dragon variations), so most plans,ideas, and positional aspects are known to me. With that being said, often in this variation black sacks that pawn and with the bishop on e6 blacks gains an edge. In the position I provided however black does well to keep the pawn, but tactics allow black to keep things under control. I was reaching out to see if anyone with crazy ideas could find a winning position or a obvious plan for white to gain a good edge. I have not seen this yet. But, thanks for your thoughts.
Eelco de Groot wrote:Did somebody say dragons? Rainbow Serpent thinks Black's best bet is Rb4, but my computer is not so fast, especially compared with that 8 threaded monster Louis has plugged into the wallsockets.
The move is still in Fail Low. So far no other move has surfaced above -0.53 though, and I'm waiting how far the score will go down again. The evaluation of Rainbow Serpent is the same as in Stockfish so only move choices can make a difference here.
1rb2rk1/p1q1pp1p/2p3p1/2Nn4/2BQ4/5P2/PPP3PP/2KR3R b - -
Thanks Robert! I'm getting back some confidence in the engines abilities after the debacle I posted about a couple of days ago, when the search collapsed as it where. I have not found out what caused that though. The engine has since changed, hash replacement policy is still the same. The buggy behaviour only appeared at great depths and may have started subtle, I'm just looking for similar behaviour.
Anyway, here is some more, the engine does not reach such great depths anymore but instead is checking nodes with deeper exclusion searches, this is costly but maybe more solid. I don't really know yet. And still a different move from Stockfish and Houdini, that is good because it means the engine is also a bit different now.
best move: Rb8-b4 time: 771:13.547 min n/s: 502.563 nodes: 23.255.379.436
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan
