What the computer chess community needs to decide

[tomgdrums]

So a "man of science" should be ok with breaking into a competitor's lab and stealing his science? Or a "man of science" should be able to copy significant parts of someone else's work and publish it as their own, ignoring copyright law, ethics, etc?

I do not get the argument. Yes, it would be nice if everyone worked for the "common good". And some of us share every new idea we discover and do exactly that. And some don't. And some try to short-cut the time/effort part of the equation and simply copy and change and then say "this is my original work."

Robert,

IMO a "man of science" should be ok with breaking into a competitor's lab and stealing his science as long as that contributes to the "common good". Definitely yes. Knowledge must be shared, this is the way I see it.

BR
Paulo

I don't believe in illegal and/or unethical behaviour to advance science... If one wants to look inside an executable to extract an idea, that is one thing. But if they copy code, this is another.

Dr. Hyatt is 100% correct. For if we excuse illegal and/or unethical behavior to advance science the next step down would be for us to then excuse the illegal and/or unethical USE of science.

[tomgdrums]

Larry,

My own test confirmed the claim that 49 was stronger than 47, but I was unaware that Ivanhoe counted backward (!) I paid no attention to Ivanhoe until very recently. Anyway if they count backward then you have answered this question satisfactorily.

Thank you for having the courage to admit that your libelous speculation about Houdini and myself was based on a basic lack of information about Ivanhoe.

The stupidity of all this is beyond me, I think I'd better take a leave from the forum for a while and start working on Houdini 2.0...

Cheers,
Robert

Once again the Houdini Guy leaves without directly answering a direct question! (one that I put to him elsewhere in this thread)

His evasiveness is as LOUD as Vas' silence!

[lkaufman]

That would be an excellent idea. The stronger Houdini is, the more depressed Vas, Larry&co are going to be.

As a competitor, it is true that a stronger Houdini saddens me. On the other hand, as an active user, any new stronger #1 engine brings me happiness. I'm not sure which effect is stronger. I very much want to see the standard of all the top engines continue to rise.

[Rolf]

Nothing about these programs should offend ANYONE on this group. Nothing said about them is directed in a personal way towards anyone on this group so please stop being so defensive. As long as these cowards stay in the shadows, we should be able to speak freely about them without being attacked for it. You have your ego so tied up in someone else's work that I'm embarrassed for you - it really makes you look like a loser. Be a man.

As long as you have a veritable professor in the US who doesnt blink if he could harm Vas Rajlich in a sort of FBI under cover approach and instrumentalizing these invisible cowards (now completed in a fake stunt by someone out of their neighborhood), and you dont oppose this guy, then how much are you a man, Don?

Again, you are absolutely right with your partial critic but now it's time to make a conclusion. As long as we tolerate closed programs in business CC that we dont examine at all if they are sober, it's a sort of racism or call it with a better term if we focus on solely Vas as if he had done something evil or had invented it. You know better than me, that chess programs all in a row could never claim originality because they are all copied from former ideas and being optimalized by some newer ideas. Look, you wont succeed in dominating the world with the hypocritical ideology that what the USA and few allies is doing in wars, politics or science is an overall good doing. It's not.

[Rolf]

As a competitor, it is true that a stronger Houdini saddens me. On the other hand, as an active user, any new stronger #1 engine brings me happiness. I'm not sure which effect is stronger. I very much want to see the standard of all the top engines continue to rise.

After a former friend program has been successfully ripped apart and that is bringing you joy as a user? What a confusion!

[K I Hyams]

After a former friend program has been successfully ripped apart and that is bringing you joy as a user? What a confusion!

Yes, you are correct; it has been successfully ripped apart and now everyone, including you, knows what is inside it.

In the past, you have used the fact that Bob has no interest in trying to take Rajlich to court as an indication that he is either untruthful about what he has seen inside Rybka or that he is incompetent. The question that you should have asked yourself is: “ why doesn’t Rajlich take Bob to court?” Whereas Bob has neither motivation nor justification to prosecute Bob, Rajlich would have very good reason and justification to prosecute Bob.

I understand that, some years ago, you were taken to court by Ed Schroder because he considered that you were making unjustifiable claims about Rebel. Is that correct? If it is, would you please tell us some details?

One additional point. Fabien is now interested and you were curious about the reason for that.
Midway through the period during which Fruit was sold as a commercial program, Rajlich released Rybka 1. As a consequence, Fruit sales will have gone down. Fabien might consider, amongst other things that:
1. Rajlich made illegal use of his program,
2. Rajlich also used his own (Fabien’s) program to divert money away from Fabien and into his own pocket!!

Perhaps the irony didn’t appeal to Fabien.

[Rolf]

In the past, you have used the fact that Bob has no interest in trying to take Rajlich to court as an indication that he is either untruthful about what he has seen inside Rybka or that he is incompetent. The question that you should have asked yourself is: “ why doesn’t Rajlich take Bob to court?” Whereas Bob has neither motivation nor justification to prosecute Bob, Rajlich would have very good reason and justification to prosecute Bob.

I spoke of a dirty campaign because it went on and on and was never meant to find the issue in a court trial. So, it was just hypocrisy and character defamation. Or how the appropriate terms are defined.

Difference to the past is interesting. No matter to what lays could express on the net or even what a professor could rant without exact informations on all important levels of legal relevance, a creative business guy like Vas does it right. He simply avoids to get torn into any possible personal emotional state of mind so that in the end others like the campaigners define your feelings.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

In the past, you have used the fact that Bob has no interest in trying to take Rajlich to court as an indication that he is either untruthful about what he has seen inside Rybka or that he is incompetent. The question that you should have asked yourself is: “ why doesn’t Rajlich take Bob to court?” Whereas Bob has neither motivation nor justification to prosecute Bob, Rajlich would have very good reason and justification to prosecute Bob.

I spoke of a dirty campaign because it went on and on and was never meant to find the issue in a court trial. So, it was just hypocrisy and character defamation. Or how the appropriate terms are defined.

Difference to the past is interesting. No matter to what lays could express on the net or even what a professor could rant without exact informations on all important levels of legal relevance, a creative business guy like Vas does it right. He simply avoids to get torn into any possible personal emotional state of mind so that in the end others like the campaigners define your feelings.

Why don't you answer the question of K I Hyams Rolf
So your butt had been dragged to the court by Rebel's author

Hmmmm,very interesting....
Digging for more details regards,
Dr.D

[bob]

I would claim that false, at least with respect to robo*. I can run 10 million games with Crafty on my cluster and not lose a single one to a crash and then time loss. Robo, on the other hand, crashes regularly and out of 6000 games, it will lose a couple of hundred by crashing.

I don't use it in testing for that reason. If I throw out the crashes, it is very strong. But with the crashes, it is significantly weaker.

As I already wrote you before, there is only 1 specific bug related to quiet check promotions which caused crashes (initial static array overwrites that Dann C. continuously mentions like a bad record cannot cause crashes, besides there are couple possible array overwrites in eval, but they are all false alarms). This was corrected later in Ivanhoe v64. With this bug corrected, I played couple of millions of games with different Robbo versions (single core, no ponder) without a single crash.

You actually never cared to get a working version for your tests, but preferred instead to constantly bash Ippo...

I am not "bashing ippo". And when I reported this crashing, and was pointed to a newer version, I tried that. And I did this more than once. And have _never_ successfully played my normal 6K games per opponent without having a bunch of crashes.

The program is strong. It is reverse-engineered. And every version I have tried had at least one or more bugs that would cause crashes. I can not try the executable-only versions, so have to rely on versions that have source. If you want to try, as others have, to point me to a _working_ source, feel free and I will give it a test. So far, however, this has not happened.

[bob]

Nothing about these programs should offend ANYONE on this group. Nothing said about them is directed in a personal way towards anyone on this group so please stop being so defensive. As long as these cowards stay in the shadows, we should be able to speak freely about them without being attacked for it. You have your ego so tied up in someone else's work that I'm embarrassed for you - it really makes you look like a loser. Be a man.

As long as you have a veritable professor in the US who doesnt blink if he could harm Vas Rajlich in a sort of FBI under cover approach and instrumentalizing these invisible cowards (now completed in a fake stunt by someone out of their neighborhood), and you dont oppose this guy, then how much are you a man, Don?

Again, you are absolutely right with your partial critic but now it's time to make a conclusion. As long as we tolerate closed programs in business CC that we dont examine at all if they are sober, it's a sort of racism or call it with a better term if we focus on solely Vas as if he had done something evil or had invented it. You know better than me, that chess programs all in a row could never claim originality because they are all copied from former ideas and being optimalized by some newer ideas. Look, you wont succeed in dominating the world with the hypocritical ideology that what the USA and few allies is doing in wars, politics or science is an overall good doing. It's not.

Why don't you quit complaining and expend the effort to investigate another program? You don't get to tell me how to spend _my_ time and effort. And, once again, the gap between "ideas" and "source code" is _HUGE_. Using ideas is fine. Copying source code is not. It is that simple.

I guess no legal system can prosecute a person caught red-handed until they prosecute _everybody_ that has committed the same crime??? Practical...