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Re: What the computer chess community needs to decide

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:29 pm
by Christopher Conkie
paulo wrote:
Christopher Conkie wrote:
paulo wrote:
Don wrote: I don't know for sure whether I could do it in a month, but yes, I could add 50 ELO and more.
Robert Houdart could too, Robert Hyatt could, just about any of the top 20 program authors could do this.
Are you sure? Do you know Robert? In what basis do you say that besides considering yourself one of the top 20 program author?

Getting hilarious.
LOLLL :D

On the basis that Houdini is a complete copy of Robbolito.

I thought you might have worked that out by now.

It is hilarious that you seem unable to.......
Nice, a complete copy of Robbolito +100 Elo above R4. Amazing copy.
Please don't be ridiculous.
Look listen carefully Paulo......

Everyone here knows that Mr. Houdart did not write Houdini from scratch. Your protestations about elo are completely insignificant. Most programs can be improved a little by clever compiling. This is why people respect the work of those like Jim Ablett who take the time to do that for the community.

You only have to disassemble Houdini to know that it is fundamentally Robbolito.

Now if you would like to say to me that Mr. Houdart is the programmer of Robbolito then I would say to you.....that Robbolito is a rewritten Ippolit.

If you would like to say to me that Mr. Houdart is the programmer of Ippolit, I would say to you that Ippolit is a disassembled Rybka 2.3.2b.

If you would like to say to me that Mr Houdart is the programmer of Rybka then I would say to you that Rybka (1.0 Beta) is distinctly Fruity.

If you were to say to me that Mr. Houdart is the programmer of Fruit, I say NO. The programmer of Fruit is Fabien Letouzey.

I cannot put it any plainer than that.

What may be up for discussion in my world is/are the differences between Rybka 1.0 beta and Rybka 2.3.2b.....

That is all.

That's it.

Fin.

Chris

Re: What the computer chess community needs to decide

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:42 pm
by PauloSoare
After a year of discussions about Rybka 3 x Ippolitto, I believe that there is only one way to see the truth, Vas show the code of Rybka 3.

Re: What the computer chess community needs to decide

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:42 pm
by paulo
Christopher Conkie wrote:
Everyone here knows that Mr. Houdart did not write Houdini from scratch.
Hope not, Mr. Houdart seems to be a very intelligent guy. Today only a complete asshole would start coding a new engine from scratch, i.e., ignoring all the (best) available ideias and resources.

I'm sorry to tell you but here you are the one who didn't work out.

Re: What the computer chess community needs to decide

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:43 pm
by Mike S.
Don wrote:I believe there are 3 basic points of view on this that pretty much define how people feel about it.

1. Ippolito is a completely orginal program.
2. Ippolito is heavily based on reverse engineering Rybka 3 and this is wrong.
3. Ippolito is heavily based on reverse enginnering Rybka 3 and so what?
I don't know if it would be a basic point (in the sense of being considered by many), but what if

4. Ippolito may be heavily based on Strelka (-1 and/or 2.0)?

While the origin of the Strelkas is questionable, does this have to mean that software based on Strelka code - which is public knowledge so to speak - is automatically questionable too?

(I need to admit that I forgot if Strelka 2.0 was published under the GPL like the Ippos, but that probably is only a minor detail in the matter.)

Re: What the computer chess community needs to decide

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:52 pm
by Christopher Conkie
paulo wrote:
Christopher Conkie wrote:
Everyone here knows that Mr. Houdart did not write Houdini from scratch.
Hope not, Mr. Houdart seems to be a very intelligent guy. Today only a complete asshole would start coding a new engine from scratch, i.e., ignoring all the (best) available ideias and resources.

I'm sorry to tell you but here you are the one who didn't work out.
Mr Houdart could not write a tic tac toe program.

Re: What the computer chess community needs to decide

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:52 pm
by Terry McCracken
Milos wrote:
Don wrote:To give an example, I think I could take one of the best clones and add 50 ELO to it within a few weeks. I think any top 10 programmer could do this. In fact it's clear that any really GOOD programmer can do this, as is witnesses by Houdini and others.
Maybe a great programmer could do it, but you could never do it.
You took every possible idea from Ippolit in Komodo, you even copied some code, you have all the values from Larry (even though these have nothing to do with Rybka 3 eval) and your Komodo still sucks as nothing.
Be realistic man, Robert Houdart is a programming genius for you and you are simply jealous.
All this you and other guys do is nothing but an envy. Bringing things on the issue of ethics is just a lousy excuse.
Where do you come up with all this nonsense? You should be removed from this discussion before you do further damage.

How many other good programmers do you want to kick in the teeth with your libel?

I'm surprised you're allowed this much leeway.

Re: What the computer chess community needs to decide

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:52 pm
by Watchman
paulo wrote: Nice, a complete copy of Robbolito +100 Elo above R4. Amazing copy.
Please don't be ridiculous.
"Sophistry" as I think K. I. Hyams and "Jean-Luc Picard" would also describe that.
paulo wrote:Today only a complete asshole would start coding a new engine from scratch
Wow and here I was almost thinking the reverse was true, although I wouldn't use Paulo's term... more like "cheat" "fraud" "swindler" "unethical" "unprincipled" "unscrupulous" something along those lines ;-)

Re: What the computer chess community needs to decide

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:55 pm
by michiguel
paulo wrote:
Christopher Conkie wrote:
Everyone here knows that Mr. Houdart did not write Houdini from scratch.
Hope not, Mr. Houdart seems to be a very intelligent guy. Today only a complete asshole would start coding a new engine from scratch, i.e., ignoring all the (best) available ideias and resources.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10... well... never mind.
Miguel

I'm sorry to tell you but here you are the one who didn't work out.

Re: What the computer chess community needs to decide

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:03 pm
by Albert Silver
Sean Evans wrote:
Albert Silver wrote:
Don wrote:3. Ippolito is heavily based on reverse enginnering Rybka 3 and so what?
This is one I can never understand as it is based on the argument "two wrongs make a right". The people who argue it almost all base it on "since Rybka is a ripoff, this one is ok", or... two wrongs make a right. Just my 2 cents.
What you have here are people wanting *something* for *nothing*.

Isn't it great... I can download Houdini for *free* and I have to *pay* for Rybka, so Houdini is fine with me, in fact IT IS GREAT WITH ME!!!! :roll: Hey, Robert even says Houdini is an *original* program; therefore it must be true. Oh those people that have shown that Houdini is really an IPPO which is really a Rybka...shhhh don't worry about them, just insult them and hopefully they will go away!

Computer chess will stop growing with new ideas if all you have to do is download a program, change the name and the code a *bit* and presto a brand new chess program ?!?!

Don't worry, Robert has big plans for Houdini:

Plan (A) keep changing the code and then go commercial as Chessbase's next flagship engine, you know the one that can beat Rybka.

Plan (B) change the code just enough to get into the WCCC and win...more money that way!

Cordially,

Sean
:lol:

I suspect many won't realize just how sarcastic you are being.

Re: What the computer chess community needs to decide

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:03 pm
by Don
paulo wrote:
Christopher Conkie wrote:
paulo wrote:
Don wrote: I don't know for sure whether I could do it in a month, but yes, I could add 50 ELO and more.
Robert Houdart could too, Robert Hyatt could, just about any of the top 20 program authors could do this.
Are you sure? Do you know Robert? In what basis do you say that besides considering yourself one of the top 20 program author?

Getting hilarious.
LOLLL :D

On the basis that Houdini is a complete copy of Robbolito.

I thought you might have worked that out by now.

It is hilarious that you seem unable to.......
Nice, a complete copy of Robbolito +100 Elo above R4. Amazing copy.
Please don't be ridiculous.
In the same sense then, Rybka is an "amazing" copy of Fruit, right?

That's why I say we need to either set some boundaries, or agree that there should be no boundaries.

But if we don't set boundaries, then it's possible to take any open source program, change the name and author in the source code and it's a new program. Or if that is too obvious we could change the way it counts nodes and make a few minor evaluation function changes and tweaks so that we can say that is it "different."

In fact, everyone on this forum could have their own strong program! That's why we need to be somewhat reasonable in these discussions because I don't think ANYONE agrees that it's desirable to take it to this extreme.