michiguel wrote:That's right. Acceptance of cheating is even worse than cheating.
Miguel
"History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people."
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Miguel and Martin Luther shoulder to shoulder. How touchy...
Putting alleged cheating in computer chess in line with is a racial segregation is quite grotesque IMO. If I were afro-american who suffered in the past, I would probably feel offended...
Personally, I think this is just a huge lack of taste.
hgm wrote:It did not matter much to the IOC that Ben Johnson ran the 100m dash faster than any human has ever done.
Nitpick: Faster than any human had ever done. Four men (Usain Bolt, Tyson Gay, Asafa Powell and Nesta Carter) have run faster now. Two more (Justin Gatlin and Tim Montgomery) also had faster times, but were later disqualified for doping offences.
They took away his gold medal and removed him from the ranking, and suspended him for his useful life! And there is very wide consensus that this was the right thing to do.
Of course it was. I find the example of Ben Johnson quite relevant to this discussion, because the supporters of derivative engines like to make the argument that the "authors" of the derivative engines must be very talented, because the derivatives are far stronger than the original. Perhaps some of them are indeed very talented, but so was Ben Johnson. Far more talented in his field, in fact, than any chess programmer in their field since Alan Turing. But extraordinary talent does not excuse cheating.
Moreover, starting with a strong, stable chess engine is an incomparably bigger advantage in computer chess than using steroids is in sprinting. Steroids don't turn average athletes into world-class sprinters. They may give you 0.1 seconds or so on the 100 meters, which could be enough to put you ahead of your rivals if you are already an elite sprinter, but it won't help you much if you're not already there. Using an existing top chess engine as the basis for your own program, on the other hand, allows you to jump directly into the world elite with no effort. It isn't equivalent to using steroids in sports. It's equivalent to magically swapping your body for Ben Johnson's body at his prime, and to start training for the 100 meters from there.
I sometimes do feel a little sorry for Ben Johnson, though. He is always the example that is brought up, despite having competed in a period were steroid use was even more widespread than today. Nobody seems to remember that half of his rivals also got caught.
I suspect that it was institutionalized and in practice by each and every nation that participated in the olympics to some degree at least. Similarly, with American baseball, I think that steroids were nearly forced upon the players by the atmosphere that was prevalent. There is a report with some huge number of baseball players that got caught. I guess that the number of users would make it the tip of the iceberg.
Cheating (and acceptance of cheating) are symptoms of the general dishonesty we find in society today. I find it rather disturbing.
That's right. Acceptance of cheating is even worse than cheating.
Miguel
"History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people."
Martin Luther King, Jr.
It is all BS by both of you. You are simply exploring a bad and incorrect Ben´s "steroids analogy".
If it was true then all the science is based on steroids, which is also a BS.
"Well, I´m just a soul whose intentions are good,
Oh Lord, please don´t let me be misunderstood."
bob wrote:
Obviously, with Vas, anything is possible, based on past actions. But holding back something on a new release? That is the kind of thing that can backfire and lose you a lot of business.
Seeing Rybka reverse engineered must have been a big backfire.
IIRC there were some discussions with Vasik at the time about ways to prevent this stuff from happening in the future. The conclusion was that even with special packaging of the binaries a good assembly guy could always reverse engineer it by doing runtime memory dumps etc.
I think at that point Vasik changed his priorities, he was no longer interested in releasing a strong binary and giving away his work, hence the cluster version in an attempt to keep the binaries private.
Thus there is good reason to suspect Rybka 4 has all the good stuff missing, there is just enough to show an improvement and milk the cash cow a bit.
Maybe we will know for sure at the next WCCC, or maybe he has lost interest all together.
SuneF wrote:Seeing Rybka reverse engineered must have been a big backfire.
IIRC there were some discussions with Vasik at the time about ways to prevent this stuff from happening in the future. The conclusion was that even with special packaging of the binaries a good assembly guy could always reverse engineer it by doing runtime memory dumps etc.
I think at that point Vasik changed his priorities, he was no longer interested in releasing a strong binary and giving away his work, hence the cluster version in an attempt to keep the binaries private.
Thus there is good reason to suspect Rybka 4 has all the good stuff missing, there is just enough to show an improvement and milk the cash cow a bit.
Maybe we will know for sure at the next WCCC, or maybe he has lost interest all together.
Wishful thinking of Rybka fanboys is really unbearably pathetic...
michiguel wrote:That's right. Acceptance of cheating is even worse than cheating.
Miguel
"History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people."
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Miguel and Martin Luther shoulder to shoulder. How touchy...
Putting alleged cheating in computer chess in line with is a racial segregation is quite grotesque IMO. If I were afro-american who suffered in the past, I would probably feel offended...
Personally, I think this is just a huge lack of taste.
It was very clear I was replying to
"Cheating (and acceptance of cheating) are symptoms of the general dishonesty we find in society today. I find it rather disturbing."
Miguel
PS: Which I see now you edit it out, or you did not even read it.
Last edited by michiguel on Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
hgm wrote:It did not matter much to the IOC that Ben Johnson ran the 100m dash faster than any human has ever done.
Nitpick: Faster than any human had ever done. Four men (Usain Bolt, Tyson Gay, Asafa Powell and Nesta Carter) have run faster now. Two more (Justin Gatlin and Tim Montgomery) also had faster times, but were later disqualified for doping offences.
They took away his gold medal and removed him from the ranking, and suspended him for his useful life! And there is very wide consensus that this was the right thing to do.
Of course it was. I find the example of Ben Johnson quite relevant to this discussion, because the supporters of derivative engines like to make the argument that the "authors" of the derivative engines must be very talented, because the derivatives are far stronger than the original. Perhaps some of them are indeed very talented, but so was Ben Johnson. Far more talented in his field, in fact, than any chess programmer in their field since Alan Turing. But extraordinary talent does not excuse cheating.
Moreover, starting with a strong, stable chess engine is an incomparably bigger advantage in computer chess than using steroids is in sprinting. Steroids don't turn average athletes into world-class sprinters. They may give you 0.1 seconds or so on the 100 meters, which could be enough to put you ahead of your rivals if you are already an elite sprinter, but it won't help you much if you're not already there. Using an existing top chess engine as the basis for your own program, on the other hand, allows you to jump directly into the world elite with no effort. It isn't equivalent to using steroids in sports. It's equivalent to magically swapping your body for Ben Johnson's body at his prime, and to start training for the 100 meters from there.
I sometimes do feel a little sorry for Ben Johnson, though. He is always the example that is brought up, despite having competed in a period were steroid use was even more widespread than today. Nobody seems to remember that half of his rivals also got caught.
I suspect that it was institutionalized and in practice by each and every nation that participated in the olympics to some degree at least. Similarly, with American baseball, I think that steroids were nearly forced upon the players by the atmosphere that was prevalent. There is a report with some huge number of baseball players that got caught. I guess that the number of users would make it the tip of the iceberg.
Cheating (and acceptance of cheating) are symptoms of the general dishonesty we find in society today. I find it rather disturbing.
That's right. Acceptance of cheating is even worse than cheating.
Miguel
"History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people."
Martin Luther King, Jr.
It is all BS by both of you. You are simply exploring a bad and incorrect Ben´s "steroids analogy".
I am not exploring any analogy.
If it was true then all the science is based on steroids, which is also a BS.
michiguel wrote:It was very clear I was replying to
"Cheating (and acceptance of cheating) are symptoms of the general dishonesty we find in society today. I find it rather disturbing."
General dishonest in society today is simply an oxymoron.
General dishonest is as old as a human race.
Putting it in line with racial segregation and fascism is just outrages, and so is you naive attempt to get away with it...
You are trying to appear smart, while in fact you appear stupid.
Last edited by Milos on Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
hgm wrote:It did not matter much to the IOC that Ben Johnson ran the 100m dash faster than any human has ever done.
Nitpick: Faster than any human had ever done. Four men (Usain Bolt, Tyson Gay, Asafa Powell and Nesta Carter) have run faster now. Two more (Justin Gatlin and Tim Montgomery) also had faster times, but were later disqualified for doping offences.
They took away his gold medal and removed him from the ranking, and suspended him for his useful life! And there is very wide consensus that this was the right thing to do.
Of course it was. I find the example of Ben Johnson quite relevant to this discussion, because the supporters of derivative engines like to make the argument that the "authors" of the derivative engines must be very talented, because the derivatives are far stronger than the original. Perhaps some of them are indeed very talented, but so was Ben Johnson. Far more talented in his field, in fact, than any chess programmer in their field since Alan Turing. But extraordinary talent does not excuse cheating.
Moreover, starting with a strong, stable chess engine is an incomparably bigger advantage in computer chess than using steroids is in sprinting. Steroids don't turn average athletes into world-class sprinters. They may give you 0.1 seconds or so on the 100 meters, which could be enough to put you ahead of your rivals if you are already an elite sprinter, but it won't help you much if you're not already there. Using an existing top chess engine as the basis for your own program, on the other hand, allows you to jump directly into the world elite with no effort. It isn't equivalent to using steroids in sports. It's equivalent to magically swapping your body for Ben Johnson's body at his prime, and to start training for the 100 meters from there.
I sometimes do feel a little sorry for Ben Johnson, though. He is always the example that is brought up, despite having competed in a period were steroid use was even more widespread than today. Nobody seems to remember that half of his rivals also got caught.
I suspect that it was institutionalized and in practice by each and every nation that participated in the olympics to some degree at least. Similarly, with American baseball, I think that steroids were nearly forced upon the players by the atmosphere that was prevalent. There is a report with some huge number of baseball players that got caught. I guess that the number of users would make it the tip of the iceberg.
Cheating (and acceptance of cheating) are symptoms of the general dishonesty we find in society today. I find it rather disturbing.
That's right. Acceptance of cheating is even worse than cheating.
Miguel
"History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people."
Martin Luther King, Jr.
It is all BS by both of you. You are simply exploring a bad and incorrect Ben´s "steroids analogy".
I am not exploring any analogy.
If it was true then all the science is based on steroids, which is also a BS.
This does not even make sense.
Miguel
You support the thesis that the wheel should be invented again and again untill the end of times. Otherwise - which means using it as a discovery of previous generations -, would be a cheating or even worse: an acceptance of cheating.
"Well, I´m just a soul whose intentions are good,
Oh Lord, please don´t let me be misunderstood."
SuneF wrote:Seeing Rybka reverse engineered must have been a big backfire.
IIRC there were some discussions with Vasik at the time about ways to prevent this stuff from happening in the future. The conclusion was that even with special packaging of the binaries a good assembly guy could always reverse engineer it by doing runtime memory dumps etc.
I think at that point Vasik changed his priorities, he was no longer interested in releasing a strong binary and giving away his work, hence the cluster version in an attempt to keep the binaries private.
Thus there is good reason to suspect Rybka 4 has all the good stuff missing, there is just enough to show an improvement and milk the cash cow a bit.
Maybe we will know for sure at the next WCCC, or maybe he has lost interest all together.
Wishful thinking of Rybka fanboys is really unbearably pathetic...
Hah well thanks for the attempted insult Mr. Ippolit Lover
I don't actually own any chessbase engines, I've never even played with Rybka except for the first free one.
You see, I'm a winboarder all the way!
But I will say this... if not for all the Hypocrit engines, Rybka would still be #1 with 100 points down to #2.
