Previous World Champion Engine Authors Speak Out...

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Tom Barrister
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Re: Pervious World Champion Engine Authors Speak Out...

Post by Tom Barrister » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:50 pm

It's good to see that Rybka managed, in a couple of years, to rise from 53rd
place up to the top of the heap. It shows what superior programming skills
can do. Congratulations to the 20 or 30 programmers who made it possible.
This production is being brought to you by Rybka: "The engine made from scratch.™"

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AdminX
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Re: Pervious World Champion Engine Authors Speak Out...

Post by AdminX » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:02 pm

Tom Barrister wrote:It's good to see that Rybka managed, in a couple of years, to rise from 53rd
place up to the top of the heap. It shows what superior programming skills
can do. Congratulations to the 20 or 30 programmers who made it possible.
Here here! :lol:
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: Pervious World Champion Engine Authors Speak Out...

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:13 pm

Tom Barrister wrote:It's good to see that Rybka managed, in a couple of years, to rise from 53rd
place up to the top of the heap. It shows what superior programming skills
can do. Congratulations to the 20 or 30 programmers who made it possible.
Yep,it was a great team achievement :wink:
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….

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mhull
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Re: Pervious World Champion Engine Authors Speak Out...

Post by mhull » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:28 pm

AdminX wrote:
Tom Barrister wrote:It's good to see that Rybka managed, in a couple of years, to rise from 53rd
place up to the top of the heap. It shows what superior programming skills
can do. Congratulations to the 20 or 30 programmers who made it possible.
Here here! :lol:
For the record it's "Hear, hear" unless you mean to identify location.
Matthew Hull

Dirt
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Re: Previous World Champion Engine Authors Speak Out...

Post by Dirt » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:34 pm

Tom Barrister wrote:Cloning has no legal meaning with respect to US copyright law.

Yes, that's a real quote, and it shows how desperate the Rybka folks have gotten.
Clone is used in chess circles in a different way than in software generally. For instance, Open Office is considered a clone of Microsoft Office, but with no (I hope) copying of code.

bob
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Re: Previous World Champion Engine Authors Speak Out...

Post by bob » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:13 pm

Dirt wrote:
Tom Barrister wrote:Cloning has no legal meaning with respect to US copyright law.

Yes, that's a real quote, and it shows how desperate the Rybka folks have gotten.
Clone is used in chess circles in a different way than in software generally. For instance, Open Office is considered a clone of Microsoft Office, but with no (I hope) copying of code.
Correct. Just a ton of reverse-engineering so that a .doc or .xls file will produce the same results using either microsoft office or open office. And apparently that has passed all the "legal checks and balances". But it does not make that OK if you tried to enter openoffice in an ICGA chess tournament. :) It is still a clone / derivative (in this case really a clone intended to be identical in all ways, but without using the original source, instead produced by inspection of the binary, + the .doc files to see what the mark-up looks like).

Dirt
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Re: Previous World Champion Engine Authors Speak Out...

Post by Dirt » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:30 pm

bob wrote:
Dirt wrote:Clone is used in chess circles in a different way than in software generally. For instance, Open Office is considered a clone of Microsoft Office, but with no (I hope) copying of code.
Correct. Just a ton of reverse-engineering so that a .doc or .xls file will produce the same results using either microsoft office or open office. And apparently that has passed all the "legal checks and balances". But it does not make that OK if you tried to enter openoffice in an ICGA chess tournament. :) It is still a clone / derivative (in this case really a clone intended to be identical in all ways, but without using the original source, instead produced by inspection of the binary, + the .doc files to see what the mark-up looks like).
Wouldn't it be ok as long as Microsoft Office wasn't entered? :-)

Really, though, by the definition of clone used by Open Office I think all UCI engines would be clones, since it's simple to replace one with another and they would work more or less the same. Likewise all Winboard engines. If you include polyglot they would all be clones, but some would be better than others.

Chess doesn't use the term clone in that way, but it's not a term that you can rely on being understood when talking outside of the chess community.

benstoker
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Re: Previous World Champion Engine Authors Speak Out...

Post by benstoker » Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:17 pm

bob wrote:
Dirt wrote:
Tom Barrister wrote:Cloning has no legal meaning with respect to US copyright law.

Yes, that's a real quote, and it shows how desperate the Rybka folks have gotten.
Clone is used in chess circles in a different way than in software generally. For instance, Open Office is considered a clone of Microsoft Office, but with no (I hope) copying of code.
Correct. Just a ton of reverse-engineering so that a .doc or .xls file will produce the same results using either microsoft office or open office. And apparently that has passed all the "legal checks and balances". But it does not make that OK if you tried to enter openoffice in an ICGA chess tournament. :) It is still a clone / derivative (in this case really a clone intended to be identical in all ways, but without using the original source, instead produced by inspection of the binary, + the .doc files to see what the mark-up looks like).
Wait a minute. The Openoffice people never had access to the Word source code. All they did was discover the ideas via RE, and then literally wrote from ground up an original program. It's Original with a capital O and should be allowed to play in all chess tournaments.

bob
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Re: Previous World Champion Engine Authors Speak Out...

Post by bob » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:16 pm

Dirt wrote:
bob wrote:
Dirt wrote:Clone is used in chess circles in a different way than in software generally. For instance, Open Office is considered a clone of Microsoft Office, but with no (I hope) copying of code.
Correct. Just a ton of reverse-engineering so that a .doc or .xls file will produce the same results using either microsoft office or open office. And apparently that has passed all the "legal checks and balances". But it does not make that OK if you tried to enter openoffice in an ICGA chess tournament. :) It is still a clone / derivative (in this case really a clone intended to be identical in all ways, but without using the original source, instead produced by inspection of the binary, + the .doc files to see what the mark-up looks like).
Wouldn't it be ok as long as Microsoft Office wasn't entered? :-)

Really, though, by the definition of clone used by Open Office I think all UCI engines would be clones, since it's simple to replace one with another and they would work more or less the same. Likewise all Winboard engines. If you include polyglot they would all be clones, but some would be better than others.

Chess doesn't use the term clone in that way, but it's not a term that you can rely on being understood when talking outside of the chess community.
I would not use that term in that way. For example, a clone should have the same output given the same input. I want a .doc file to display the way I wrote it, exactly... Chess engines are "pluggable" obviously, but each is normally different in the analysis it provides, etc...

In chess, cloning is obviously bad. But a derivative can be just as bad. Since both involve copying something.

bob
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Re: Previous World Champion Engine Authors Speak Out...

Post by bob » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:18 pm

benstoker wrote:
bob wrote:
Dirt wrote:
Tom Barrister wrote:Cloning has no legal meaning with respect to US copyright law.

Yes, that's a real quote, and it shows how desperate the Rybka folks have gotten.
Clone is used in chess circles in a different way than in software generally. For instance, Open Office is considered a clone of Microsoft Office, but with no (I hope) copying of code.
Correct. Just a ton of reverse-engineering so that a .doc or .xls file will produce the same results using either microsoft office or open office. And apparently that has passed all the "legal checks and balances". But it does not make that OK if you tried to enter openoffice in an ICGA chess tournament. :) It is still a clone / derivative (in this case really a clone intended to be identical in all ways, but without using the original source, instead produced by inspection of the binary, + the .doc files to see what the mark-up looks like).
Wait a minute. The Openoffice people never had access to the Word source code. All they did was discover the ideas via RE, and then literally wrote from ground up an original program. It's Original with a capital O and should be allowed to play in all chess tournaments.
Not so clear. One can reverse engineer by taking known input and observing output. Or can take a binary and disassemble and study that instead. If you disassemble to obtain ideas, I think it is perfectly legal. If you disassemble and the copy verbatim what you found, then that is a form of cloning, or else is a derivative if you make some changes...

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